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  #21  
Old 12-08-2017, 02:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Detector View post
.... but! I might add that ALL sites deemed "historical" are protected by Federal laws and makes no difference if there is or isn't a local state/city law......
Detector: Please tell us where you are getting this statement. If you're thinking of ARPA, then no. That does not subrogate down to state, county, and city. Oh sure you might FIND some archie that THINKS it does (they hate md'rs after all). But no, it does not logically follow. If you have some proof to the contrary, I would love to see it.

And also, even if what you're saying is true: What would qualify a place as "historical" ? Any place that an old object coin or artifact could potentially be dug ? Because , again, if you're relying on the downward subrogation of ARPA to bolster what you are asserting, then: We would have to assume that you can't find coins older than 50 yrs. on any form of public land.

But a simple look down the pages of ANY forum's show & tell pages, shows lots of hobbyists finding old coins on public land . Gasp how can that be ? Hence ..... something's not clicking with your statement.

Look forward to your reply.
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  #22  
Old 12-08-2017, 08:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom_in_CA View post
x-terra70, since this fence (to public land mind-you) seems unbreachable any other way, I'd say you did a very good job at phrasing that request.

However, I would not mail it. Much better to bump into them in person, with a big smile. Like when the location has open hours to the public. Or at one of their heritage site meetings. While you casually regale them with your knowledge of the history. After chit-chat, hand it to them personally.

Because, otherwise, if you mail it, then all-too-often, people treat such things as junk mail solicitations. So whenever asking permission, I always try to do it in person. Not a cold call or email or letter.
I see what you're tying to say, but I'm horrible at speaking on the spot, and when I speak to strangers, I sometimes get nervous and stutter. . Secondly, this lady is not always at her house, there're are mostly other employees there, so it'd be hard to meet her there, and thirdly, there is very little information on this society online. Not even an address where their meetings are. All there is, is a mailing address, a phone number, an email address and who the treasurer and secretary is. So probably the best way to contact is either a call or an email. And if they're really motivated about saving history, then they'll show interest in my offer, regardless if mailed or spoken directly. Plus I've added my phone number so she can contact me if she likes.

Originally Posted by Mud-puppy View post
Nice layout, succinct, no grammatical errors...A+++!

Maybe put in there you are an active Member in good standing of the FMDF as well as an honorary member of the DMDC? Perhaps include a picture of yourself with your gear so they know you aint a wierdo?
Maybe say you are a Student? Interested in the districts history and all things outdoorsy? A good Honest Bloke who should be encouraged and given a pass...Those are all true right?
Thanks Mud! DMDC, I wonder where that came from? Not sure if I want to add a picture (she could search me up on Facebook), but I might add that I'm a student and interested in local history (and that's all correct).

Originally Posted by Mud-puppy View post
Face to face...really the best way for gaining permissions of any sort...Especially if you can get a well regarded and familiar somebody that has some 'Trust through Transference' to kick the doors down with the right people, thats really the way to go...find yourself a local highly regarded Patron who will vouch for you and lend you their hard earned Trust through Transference if you can...

Just like trapping a big section as I used to do, you get the right Rancher to vouch for you, and everyone in his 'circle of influence' will grant you access...

No big secret... Basically just being a good happy and helpful guy with a love for Life and being outdoors finding interesting things...People like that, you are a curiosity that adds adventure to their life through yours and not just another taker......

You gotta ask though...get the right people involved and state your case honestly and passionately....face to face...Its very cool you are doing this..a great and important Life Lesson...You will make some great friends and who knows where this will lead for you? You will hear some awesome stories from the Community Elders if you take the time to listen...I know you will..you are that kind of person XT...
Thanks for those kind words! I've mentioned before up top, that even though face-to-face is probably the best way to ask, I don't speak very confidently to strangers, and that I have no clue where their meetings are held, because I couldn't find an address anywhere (except for a mailing address)

Originally Posted by Scooterjim View post
How much is the paid admission? Just pay it and start detecting. If they kick you out demand your money back.
Doesn't cost much, entry is by donation so maybe a dollar or two. But the thing is, if they kick me out, then it will likely be harder to ask for permission afterwards, because they'll probably be like "isn't this the guy who was digging up the place two weeks ago, and that we asked to leave?" Definitely wouldn't look good, but I see what you're trying to say.

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  #23  
Old 12-08-2017, 08:29 PM
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Originally Posted: X-Terra70


I see what you're tying to say, but I'm horrible at speaking on the spot, and when I speak to strangers, I sometimes get nervous and stutter. . Secondly, this lady is not always at her house, there're are mostly other employees there, so it'd be hard to meet her there, and thirdly, there is very little information on this society online. Not even an address where their meetings are. All there is, is a mailing address, a phone number, an email address and who the treasurer and secretary is. So probably the best way to contact is either a call or an email. And if they're really motivated about saving history, then they'll show interest in my offer, regardless if mailed or spoken directly. Plus I've added my phone number so she can contact me if she likes.

X... I don't agree with Tom much but do it in person... its way too easy for them to say no responding to a letter.. have a stiff shot before you speak...

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  #24  
Old 12-09-2017, 02:07 AM
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Default Asking for permission at historical sites

Phillip,
Just my 2 cents, but I think it might be better to ask in person at a council meeting (or whatever they call them) rather than send an email. That way they could size you up, see you are an upstanding citizen, etc.
I am sort of, kind of, working on something similar. Part of my town's comprehensive plan is to compile and vet an inventory of historic sites within the town, but that requires volunteer labor, the only kind they can afford. So, I have met with the town council and stepped up to volunteer. Now first, these sites are all privately owned so it isn't the town that can give me permission, but in the course of going out to the sites, confirming they are historic, taking photos, etc., I figure I am bound to engage many of the owners in conversation and hope that will lead to some permissions. The town would also like me to video interview some of the long time residents about their recollections of life in the town going way back. I think that might also lead to some more permissions but should definitely at least provide me some more leads. My approach is indirect but I think is also the path of least resistance. Anyway I am just starting this so no idea how successful it will be but I thought I'd share it in case you find it helpful.
Jim





Originally Posted by X-Terra70 View post
I recently spoke to a lady on the train about metal detecting (as I was on my way to a hunt), and she told me her husband once asked the employees at an old homestead, if he could detect at the homestead, to which they said 'no' (simple answer, right?). However, the homestead is owned by the local government, so the employees don't really have much control over the property

There are quite a few old historical sites in my council which I would like to detect, and I know I can't just walk onto the site and start detecting (they'll probably say no, like above). So, I figured, maybe I could ask for permission from the council to detect at these sites, with the condition that they may display any of my finds from these sites in their local museum (sounds fair to me, I get the joy of digging up artefacts, and they get to preserve the artefacts in their museum).

Now, I'm not sure if it's a good idea to ask (I mean, I've got nothing to lose, but still, I don't want to create too much attention on the hobby), and I have no idea how to write/formulate such an email. I would appreciate some of your ideas/tips/suggestion, thanks

Btw, I would like to add that in the mid 1990's, it was suggested in a council meeting to implement a law that would prohibit metal detecting at historical sites. I couldn't find if a law was actually created, but given that they considered making one, suggests that perhaps people have already hunted some of these sites. Then again, I'm not sure how the metal detectors from the 1990's compare to today's detectors.

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  #25  
Old 12-09-2017, 11:48 AM
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Originally Posted by jimhenry View post
..... Part of my town's comprehensive plan is to compile and vet an inventory of historic sites within the town, but that requires volunteer labor, the only kind they can afford. So, I have met with the town council and stepped up to volunteer. Now first, these sites are all privately owned so it isn't the town that can give me permission, but in the course of going out to the sites, confirming they are historic, taking photos, etc., I figure I am bound to engage many of the owners in conversation and hope that will lead to some permissions. ...
^^ x2 ^^ It may take awhile, to "bump into them" or "help out in some way" (docent, etc...), but it beats the heck out of cold calls and emails. That will just be treated as junk mail and phone solicitors. Even standing up, as a total stranger, in a city council meeting will simply be met with the "run-around". You'll be given lip service while they tell you "we need to run this past our legal council" blah blah.

Contrast to if you know people on a first-name basis, and are "writing an article" on the history of such & such, doing research, etc.....
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  #26  
Old 12-09-2017, 11:55 AM
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Originally Posted by X-Terra70 View post
.... I would be more than happy to donate any significant, or finds relevant to the site, to the XXXXX museum, or to XXXXX or XXXX house, so that these artefacts can be restored and preserved to allow future generations to appreciate the history of the council...
As as aside: Yes: We md'rs are more than happy to donate our finds. We just love the fun of the hunt. And, if anything, we get more satisfaction knowing our stuff is seen and enjoyed by the public (the fun of "show & tell" that is so intrinsic to our hobby).

HOWEVER: As a bargaining chip to getting permission, I have found this to have very little power. In fact, it's sort of an odd thing to even point out to them. Because in their mind's eyes, those items under the ground OF COURSE belonged to them. So why would it be meritorious to point out that you're going to donate them ? ( As if you would otherwise have kept them ? )

So I think that could be phrased another way. Yes, it needs to be pointed out that you don't intend to walk away with goodies. But trying to think of another way to phrase that. Because , if put out there the wrong way, they just scratch their heads thinking "what the heck?" (in my experience with many museums and historical sites)
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  #27  
Old 12-09-2017, 05:10 PM
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Default Town council meeting

Originally Posted by Tom_in_CA View post
^^ x2 ^^ It may take awhile, to "bump into them" or "help out in some way" (docent, etc...), but it beats the heck out of cold calls and emails. That will just be treated as junk mail and phone solicitors. Even standing up, as a total stranger, in a city council meeting will simply be met with the "run-around". You'll be given lip service while they tell you "we need to run this past our legal council" blah blah.

Contrast to if you know people on a first-name basis, and are "writing an article" on the history of such & such, doing research, etc.....
Tom,
Actually I am friends with the chairman of the board of supervisors who "greased the skids", set up the meeting, and put me on the agenda. I am in and we are moving forward.

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  #28  
Old 12-09-2017, 08:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom_in_CA View post
^^ x2 ^^ It may take awhile, to "bump into them" or "help out in some way" (docent, etc...), but it beats the heck out of cold calls and emails. That will just be treated as junk mail and phone solicitors. Even standing up, as a total stranger, in a city council meeting will simply be met with the "run-around". You'll be given lip service while they tell you "we need to run this past our legal council" blah blah.

Contrast to if you know people on a first-name basis, and are "writing an article" on the history of such & such, doing research, etc.....
I don't know anybody in the council that could help me. And like I've said before, if they are really passionate about saving history and preserving artefacts, then they should say yes, right? And I've also included my phone number in the email in case she wants to discuss it further. I would also like to point out, that as I'm only a student, my only way of getting to the council office is via public transport, which'll take over an hour. (We live on the edge of the council) Even getting to the sites is a challenge in itself! So even if they don't say yes now, I could still ask later, face-to-face, in five years, when I've hopefully got my license and more flexible to travel from place to place.

Originally Posted by Tom_in_CA View post
As as aside: Yes: We md'rs are more than happy to donate our finds. We just love the fun of the hunt. And, if anything, we get more satisfaction knowing our stuff is seen and enjoyed by the public (the fun of "show & tell" that is so intrinsic to our hobby).

HOWEVER: As a bargaining chip to getting permission, I have found this to have very little power. In fact, it's sort of an odd thing to even point out to them. Because in their mind's eyes, those items under the ground OF COURSE belonged to them. So why would it be meritorious to point out that you're going to donate them ? ( As if you would otherwise have kept them ? )

So I think that could be phrased another way. Yes, it needs to be pointed out that you don't intend to walk away with goodies. But trying to think of another way to phrase that. Because , if put out there the wrong way, they just scratch their heads thinking "what the heck?" (in my experience with many museums and historical sites)
Something like, "I would be more than happy if any significant finds, or finds relating to the site, were to be displayed in the XXXX museum, or in XXXXX or XXXX house, so that these artefacts can be preserved and maintained to allow future generations to appreciate their council's history.

That way I'm not saying I'm donating any items, but rather pointing out that I'd be happy to have these artefacts displayed (which is true!)

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  #29  
Old 12-09-2017, 10:33 PM
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Phillip,
In your situation, perhaps email is the only option for you. I do think you should give serious consideration to Tom's suggestion of writing an article about your local history, but then of course be sincere about that and really do attempt to write such an article.
As far as not knowing folks on the council, you know you can work on changing that. When I moved here 10 years ago I didn't know a soul. Then I saw an article in the local newspaper seeking a volunteer to write/develop an Adopt a Highway program for the town. Now I knew nothing about such things but I did know that Google is your friend. I volunteered and did it and got some very good cred for it. Then I joined the local volunteer Fire company, got to know a few more people that way. Then I launched a local low power license free (under FCC Part 15 rules in the U.S.) AM broadcast radio station to serve the community. In addition to my programming the town sends me Public Service Announcements every week which I record and broadcast for them, and thy promote the station in their quarterly newsletter and on their website. None of these may work for you but I'm just throwing these out there as possible ways to improve your connections and standing in the community.



Originally Posted by X-Terra70 View post
I don't know anybody in the council that could help me. And like I've said before, if they are really passionate about saving history and preserving artefacts, then they should say yes, right? And I've also included my phone number in the email in case she wants to discuss it further. I would also like to point out, that as I'm only a student, my only way of getting to the council office is via public transport, which'll take over an hour. (We live on the edge of the council) Even getting to the sites is a challenge in itself! So even if they don't say yes now, I could still ask later, face-to-face, in five years, when I've hopefully got my license and more flexible to travel from place to place.



Something like, "I would be more than happy if any significant finds, or finds relating to the site, were to be displayed in the XXXX museum, or in XXXXX or XXXX house, so that these artefacts can be preserved and maintained to allow future generations to appreciate their council's history.

That way I'm not saying I'm donating any items, but rather pointing out that I'd be happy to have these artefacts displayed (which is true!)

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  #30  
Old 12-10-2017, 10:06 AM
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I'll just throw this out here since you are a well regarded good guy and great friend here on the Forum...JimHenrys examples got me thinking...Regarding Public speaking or asking people permission face to face...

People do not really HEAR what you are saying, they moreso observe your body language and passion about what you are talking about...they evaluate your sincerity and trusthworthiness through eye contact, these things you cannot fake or should even attempt......

If you exude passion, People actually are looking for a reason to help you..stuttering is not a detriment in these regards, in fact, it is a positive...The listener knows you are overcoming a great personal fear and feel a kindredness and willingness to assist, since they have been there too...

Public speaking is commonly considered a fate worse than death...Lots of studies have been done about it...Most people rank it right up there with the most horrible fears a Human could have, and some would rather be killed than be forced into it...Ask me how I know...

Except for shysters and Politicians, we are all awkward and unpracticed and nervous when talking to a stranger...It just takes a bit of practice...so this may be your opportunity to start out on mastering it...

This is exactly why Salesmen make pretty good money for doing about nothing, they have mastered and overcome the natural fear Humans have regarding talking to other people...If you genuinely like people, have an empathetic spirit, which you already have, you are two steps ahead of the skill already! Just start in talking and let the conversation flow taking into consideration the listeners well being as primary, and you are merely a helper...things work out easy then...This is how I overcame my fear....."I'm here to help"....

FWIW, One of the most recognized voices of our time, James Earl Jones, had a horrible stuttering...He focused up and mastered it...This is what you have to do for your Future, and that means you have to practice until you overcome this fear...It aint about the stuttering, its about the FEAR...Look at how nervous Lance and Andy were but still got that old crazy Farmers permission!

..Nobody wants to hurt you or anything...You are simply here to help, learn, and be involved....I dont know anybody who would say no to that?..even if they did, you got in some great practice so you still came out a winner!

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  #31  
Old 12-10-2017, 02:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Mud-puppy View post
I'll just throw this out here since you are a well regarded good guy and great friend here on the Forum...JimHenrys examples got me thinking...Regarding Public speaking or asking people permission face to face...

People do not really HEAR what you are saying, they moreso observe your body language and passion about what you are talking about...they evaluate your sincerity and trusthworthiness through eye contact, these things you cannot fake or should even attempt......

If you exude passion, People actually are looking for a reason to help you..stuttering is not a detriment in these regards, in fact, it is a positive...The listener knows you are overcoming a great personal fear and feel a kindredness and willingness to assist, since they have been there too...

Public speaking is commonly considered a fate worse than death...Lots of studies have been done about it...Most people rank it right up there with the most horrible fears a Human could have, and some would rather be killed than be forced into it...Ask me how I know...

Except for shysters and Politicians, we are all awkward and unpracticed and nervous when talking to a stranger...It just takes a bit of practice...so this may be your opportunity to start out on mastering it...

This is exactly why Salesmen make pretty good money for doing about nothing, they have mastered and overcome the natural fear Humans have regarding talking to other people...If you genuinely like people, have an empathetic spirit, which you already have, you are two steps ahead of the skill already! Just start in talking and let the conversation flow taking into consideration the listeners well being as primary, and you are merely a helper...things work out easy then...This is how I overcame my fear....."I'm here to help"....

FWIW, One of the most recognized voices of our time, James Earl Jones, had a horrible stuttering...He focused up and mastered it...This is what you have to do for your Future, and that means you have to practice until you overcome this fear...It aint about the stuttering, its about the FEAR...Look at how nervous Lance and Andy were but still got that old crazy Farmers permission!

..Nobody wants to hurt you or anything...You are simply here to help, learn, and be involved....I dont know anybody who would say no to that?..even if they did, you got in some great practice so you still came out a winner!
mud-puppy, your inputs are always great reading on the forum.

Yes: Md'ing permissions (where it must be obtained) is an art. Not a science. An analogy is like picking up on women:

a) you send a lady, who is a total stranger to you, an email, or a letter, or a cold-call on the phone. You say: "hi, would you like to go on a date?". She will most-likely not respond, hang up, hit the delete button, etc... Right ?

b) Or you can meet her in person (at the library, at church, etc...) and ask: "hi, would you like to go on a date?". But even THIS is totally, as you say: Body language. Are you smiling ? Are you humble ? Are you jovial and eye-contact ? Making small talk at the same time ?

You know the drill as a single person: One guy can't get a date TO SAVE HIS LIFE ! But the next guy is a Don Juan that never lacks meeting women (even if he's got no redeeming value).

So too is it with md'ing (or any 'selling') : If you've got the inherent passion, great at small talk, know "name-dropping", etc.... Then your chances go way up.
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  #32  
Old 12-11-2017, 06:36 AM
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Originally Posted by jimhenry View post
Phillip,
In your situation, perhaps email is the only option for you. I do think you should give serious consideration to Tom's suggestion of writing an article about your local history, but then of course be sincere about that and really do attempt to write such an article.
As far as not knowing folks on the council, you know you can work on changing that. When I moved here 10 years ago I didn't know a soul. Then I saw an article in the local newspaper seeking a volunteer to write/develop an Adopt a Highway program for the town. Now I knew nothing about such things but I did know that Google is your friend. I volunteered and did it and got some very good cred for it. Then I joined the local volunteer Fire company, got to know a few more people that way. Then I launched a local low power license free (under FCC Part 15 rules in the U.S.) AM broadcast radio station to serve the community. In addition to my programming the town sends me Public Service Announcements every week which I record and broadcast for them, and thy promote the station in their quarterly newsletter and on their website. None of these may work for you but I'm just throwing these out there as possible ways to improve your connections and standing in the community.
Thanks, you're right in saying that I can always work on my (positive) relationship with the council, and I should probably do that. But at the moment I don't have much time to do that and I just want to get out there and swing the coil . But you've got me thinking, and I'll definitely take advantage of any upcoming opportunities to improve my connections with the council members.

Originally Posted by Mud-puppy View post
I'll just throw this out here since you are a well regarded good guy and great friend here on the Forum...JimHenrys examples got me thinking...Regarding Public speaking or asking people permission face to face...

People do not really HEAR what you are saying, they moreso observe your body language and passion about what you are talking about...they evaluate your sincerity and trusthworthiness through eye contact, these things you cannot fake or should even attempt......

If you exude passion, People actually are looking for a reason to help you..stuttering is not a detriment in these regards, in fact, it is a positive...The listener knows you are overcoming a great personal fear and feel a kindredness and willingness to assist, since they have been there too...

Public speaking is commonly considered a fate worse than death...Lots of studies have been done about it...Most people rank it right up there with the most horrible fears a Human could have, and some would rather be killed than be forced into it...Ask me how I know...

Except for shysters and Politicians, we are all awkward and unpracticed and nervous when talking to a stranger...It just takes a bit of practice...so this may be your opportunity to start out on mastering it...

This is exactly why Salesmen make pretty good money for doing about nothing, they have mastered and overcome the natural fear Humans have regarding talking to other people...If you genuinely like people, have an empathetic spirit, which you already have, you are two steps ahead of the skill already! Just start in talking and let the conversation flow taking into consideration the listeners well being as primary, and you are merely a helper...things work out easy then...This is how I overcame my fear....."I'm here to help"....

FWIW, One of the most recognized voices of our time, James Earl Jones, had a horrible stuttering...He focused up and mastered it...This is what you have to do for your Future, and that means you have to practice until you overcome this fear...It aint about the stuttering, its about the FEAR...Look at how nervous Lance and Andy were but still got that old crazy Farmers permission!

..Nobody wants to hurt you or anything...You are simply here to help, learn, and be involved....I dont know anybody who would say no to that?..even if they did, you got in some great practice so you still came out a winner!
Thanks Mud! If this email doesn't do the trick, then I guess my only other option is too speak face-to-face with the people of this historical society, so I'll definitely be following your advice then.

I'll be sending the email later today, so I'm hoping she'll give me the go-ahead

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Oldest Coin: 1877 English Penny
2017 totals: $1401.68AUD (506x$2, 258x$1, 71x50c, 201x20c, 315x10c, 396x5c, 138x2c, 192x1c) and 82 foreign, collectable or older Australian/English (pre-decimal) coins.
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