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  #61  
Old 04-06-2021, 06:51 PM
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scuba, just post some more of those exploits of repatriations and posse-hunts. Preferably the ones where you pose getting the thankyou kiss from the cute grateful young gal. Ok, and also post any gold coins or seateds. And if you do that, THEN: we'll forgive you for the legal brushes along the way .
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  #62  
Old 04-06-2021, 09:42 PM
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Love this thread! So many different perspectives! I don't think i would mistake that truck for a police vehicle.... Don't personally have a issue with it.

My advice when dealing with LEOs- Don't mistake their smalltalk for friendly conversation. If they question you about something as innocuous as the weather, don't answer. They are on a fishing trip and rest assured your answers will be admissible in a sworn deposition.

Never consent to a search. Make them get a warrant if they aren't covered by probable cause/reasonable suspicion. If they ask, they don't have it.

This isn't anti-cop. This is common sense.

I don't have an issue whatsoever when it comes to letting LEOs know they work for and answer to the citizens.

I was stopped at a checkpoint and Deputy asked me if i knew my registration would expire soon.

I answered "yeah".

He said "you mean yes sir".

I said "no" and drove away.

With 21 years active duty military experience and 16 years Law Enforcement and federal government employment, i feel i know my boundaries.

I don't/won't go out of my way to seek confrontation, and i won't back down before a cost/ benefit analysis.

I believe and exercise my right to keep and bear arms. I believe hunting is a healthy, natural endeavor.

I don't agree with FreeBirdTim that offering an opinion counter to his constitutes ridicule.

Honest discussion/debate has the potential to educate all involved parties.

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  #63  
Old 04-06-2021, 10:24 PM
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Originally Posted by ScubaDetective View post
You want to hear that? Well I was detecting parking strips in SLC Utah. A homeowner came out and told me to get off his lawn. I told him that I was on public property. He pushed his coat aside and showed me a badge. I said so you are a cop? He said yes. I reached for my wallet to get out my badge. He said to keep my hands where he could see them. I said if you really are a cop you need to learn the law. I put my headphones back on and went back to detecting. He yelled, someone is going to jail, and went back into his house.

I kept detecting and two SLC police cars pulled up at an angle. I put my detector down, raised my hands and said I was a state cop and I was armed. One asked to see my identification. I gave it to him and told him what transpired. They knocked on the door, got him out and he was right. Someone went to jail for impersonating a peace officer and it wasn't me. He had a security guard badge on a leather holder on his belt.
Nice!!!!
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  #64  
Old 04-07-2021, 10:59 AM
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Originally Posted by ScubaDetective View post
You want to hear that? Well I was detecting parking strips in SLC Utah. A homeowner came out and told me to get off his lawn. I told him that I was on public property. He pushed his coat aside and showed me a badge. I said so you are a cop? He said yes. I reached for my wallet to get out my badge. He said to keep my hands where he could see them. I said if you really are a cop you need to learn the law. I put my headphones back on and went back to detecting. He yelled, someone is going to jail, and went back into his house.

I kept detecting and two SLC police cars pulled up at an angle. I put my detector down, raised my hands and said I was a state cop and I was armed. One asked to see my identification. I gave it to him and told him what transpired. They knocked on the door, got him out and he was right. Someone went to jail for impersonating a peace officer and it wasn't me. He had a security guard badge on a leather holder on his belt.
Sweet! I've also spent a lot of Utah time. Moab (X2), SLC, and Park City. We loved our Utah time and still have friends there.

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  #65  
Old 04-07-2021, 09:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Rock Jock View post
Sweet! I've also spent a lot of Utah time. Moab (X2), SLC, and Park City. We loved our Utah time and still have friends there.
I still have four daughters in Utah. One in SLC, one in Farmington Hills, one in Ogden and one in Duchesne. I go there every year.

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  #66  
Old 04-07-2021, 11:37 PM
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Scuba - What are the Riparian Rights in Michigan for lakes with public access?

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  #67  
Old 04-08-2021, 12:53 AM
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I don't agree with FreeBirdTim that offering an opinion counter to his constitutes ridicule.
I wasn't referring to you. I was referring to the guys who feel the need to add childish emojis to every comment they make regarding my views on anything. Grow up, boys.

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  #68  
Old 04-08-2021, 08:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Swing4TheRing View post
Scuba - What are the Riparian Rights in Michigan for lakes with public access?
ANY lake in Michigan with ANY public access, a boat ramp, park, stream that goes into it. ANY way to legally get on the water. Homeowners own the land to the high water mark. PERIOD.

I own the rest.

I was metal detecting a lake in southern Michigan that has a public boat ramp. A marina had roped off a place and we anchored outside the rope and I went in with my metal detector diving. Someone pulled on my rope attached to my dive flag. I came up and a lady said I couldn't be in the roped off area. AND she said I couldn't anchor my boat there. I said sure I can. A guy on the dock yelled, You ever hear of riparian rights. I said I sure have, you don't have any. I told the lady the law and went back under.

About half an hour later I hear a bang bang bang underwater. I come up to a police officer on the dock. He said you are trespassing. I said no sir I am not. He said now that you are standing up you are. I said no sir. I told him the law and he said he was researching it and he thought I was right. I said I was and told him my background. He asked for my name. i gave him my drivers license number so he could have all my information. He thanked me and left.

I have another story of a person on a lake trying to tell me to get out. I said it was a public lake and he got very belligerent. I flat out told him to go play with himself. Later three officers showed up. A Sgt came and talked to me. Asked me if I really said that. I said yes. He couldn't stop laughing. Called the guy a pompous jerk. More great officers.

TOO many rich homeowners that live on lakes think they own the whole lake. They do NOT. WHY folks feel they have to push others around or try to is beyond me. I might not be as rich as they are. Some of these homes on lakes are incredible. A helicopter pad in your back yard and a garage to push your helicopter in after you land it.

BUT, there are also very friendly millionaires. Not all try to push you around.

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  #69  
Old 04-08-2021, 09:47 PM
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^"I told him to go play with himself "...lol.. These kinds of stories are great. Gotta respect you for standing up to these lunatics. I don't dive , so I don't have to deal with this. But I do hunt the wet that can extend out a bit at low tide. Needless to say , when approached by the cops , I just move on and don't argue. Mainly because I know I'm in the wrong by tress passing. Posted signs and all. I'm climbing over , going around or going through. Overall I would say the cops were cool and wanted to know if I found anything. It also helped that I had a good attitude. It doesn't bother me , I just go hunt somewhere else.
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Old 04-08-2021, 09:58 PM
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Originally Posted by KOB View post
^"I told him to go play with himself "...lol.. These kinds of stories are great. Gotta respect you for standing up to these lunatics. I don't dive , so I don't have to deal with this. But I do hunt the wet that can extend out a bit at low tide. Needless to say , when approached by the cops , I just move on and don't argue. Mainly because I know I'm in the wrong by tress passing. Posted signs and all. I'm climbing over , going around or going through. Overall I would say the cops were cool and wanted to know if I found anything. It also helped that I had a good attitude. It doesn't bother me , I just go hunt somewhere else.
There are a LOT of rich folks in Michigan that post NO TRESPASSING signs. All along the great lakes for example. Well guess what? Michigan passed a law that ALL the water a long the great lakes is PUBLIC. You can walk your dog from Port Huron to lake Michigan and you will never step foot on private property if you stay below the high water mark. Just because it is posted, doesn't mean you are breaking the law. As I said, folks with TONS of money buy waterfront property. Along lake Huron it goes for 5 grand a foot. People can put signs up all they want. doesn't mean they are legal. But if you KNOW 100% for certain you are breaking the law, my advice is don't.

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  #71  
Old 04-08-2021, 10:15 PM
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Originally Posted by ScubaDetective View post
ANY lake in Michigan with ANY public access, a boat ramp, park, stream that goes into it. ANY way to legally get on the water. Homeowners own the land to the high water mark. PERIOD...
I'm not here to argue, but rather just looking for clarification because I too believe the public has a right to use public lakes in a recreational manner, including the bottomlands (so I'm on your side).

But I did find this and am just curious to how you interpret it or where the legal bearing is to justify metal detecting the lake's bottomlands because there are plenty of inland lakes I'd like to just wade around the shores and hunt.

Public Rights on Michigan Waters
"Michigan riparian property owners who own land on navigable inland lakes or streams own the respective bottom lands covered by water, however, they do not own the water or the fish that swim within those waters. If public access to navigable water has been established by the state or a local government entity such as the county or township, public users enjoy the same recreational boating and/or fishing rights and privileges as riparian property owners."

Limitations of Public Rights
"The public right to use navigable lakes and streams includes the right of incidental use of riparian owned bottom lands, but that right does not extend to the uplands of riparian property owners while in such waters, or in entering or departing waters from those privately owned uplands."

Riparian Ownership of Bottomlands
"The State of Michigan defines bottom lands as the land area of an inland lake or stream which lies below the ordinary high-water mark which may or may not be covered by water. The courts have established and reaffirmed the ownership of the bottom lands to the middle thread of an inland lake or stream by the adjacent riparian property owner in several cases dating back to 1860. The courts have also established and reaffirmed, however, that riparian ownership of bottom lands does not “injure or abridge” the right of navigation by other riparian property owners and/or the general public."

So it clearly states they don't own the water above the bottom land, but they do "own" the bottom itself (as how it sounds and is where I'm confused...) Appreciate you thoughts and input.

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Old 04-08-2021, 10:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Swing4TheRing View post
I'm not here to argue, but rather just looking for clarification because I too believe the public has a right to use public lakes in a recreational manner, including the bottomlands (so I'm on your side).

But I did find this and am just curious to how you interpret it or where the legal bearing is to justify metal detecting the lake's bottomlands because there are plenty of inland lakes I'd like to just wade around the shores and hunt.

Public Rights on Michigan Waters
"Michigan riparian property owners who own land on navigable inland lakes or streams own the respective bottom lands covered by water, however, they do not own the water or the fish that swim within those waters. If public access to navigable water has been established by the state or a local government entity such as the county or township, public users enjoy the same recreational boating and/or fishing rights and privileges as riparian property owners."

Limitations of Public Rights
"The public right to use navigable lakes and streams includes the right of incidental use of riparian owned bottom lands, but that right does not extend to the uplands of riparian property owners while in such waters, or in entering or departing waters from those privately owned uplands."

Riparian Ownership of Bottomlands
"The State of Michigan defines bottom lands as the land area of an inland lake or stream which lies below the ordinary high-water mark which may or may not be covered by water. The courts have established and reaffirmed the ownership of the bottom lands to the middle thread of an inland lake or stream by the adjacent riparian property owner in several cases dating back to 1860. The courts have also established and reaffirmed, however, that riparian ownership of bottom lands does not “injure or abridge” the right of navigation by other riparian property owners and/or the general public."

So it clearly states they don't own the water above the bottom land, but they do "own" the bottom itself (as how it sounds and is where I'm confused...) Appreciate you thoughts and input.
Where did you find that? I think it is outdated. HERE is what you need

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...dUZ-7KglzsLIFL

PUBLIC RIGHTS ON MICHIGAN WATERS - State of Michigan I know it is as clear as mud. But what I was told is basically if a lake has public access anywhere NO riparian owns the bottom land of the lake. But if it is a private lake with no public access anywhere and you have permission from a land owner to hunt it, you can only legally hunt is pie shaped property BUT, most folks wouldn't care at all

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  #73  
Old 04-09-2021, 08:41 AM
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Originally Posted by ScubaDetective View post
Where did you find that? I think it is outdated. HERE is what you need

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...dUZ-7KglzsLIFL

PUBLIC RIGHTS ON MICHIGAN WATERS...
My link that I found - https://mymlsa.org/government-and-le...s-in-michigan/


From your link - I love the "Floating Log Test" Law haha! A bit of history with that one!

So I pulled out this verbiage from the link...

"The right to public use of navigable lakes and streams includes the right of trespass upon the submerged soil, but does not extend to the uplands of riparian owners while in such waters, or in entering or departing from them.

If public access to navigable water has been established, the public user enjoys the same use rights and privileges of the private littoral owners. Thus, the right to fish a public lake extends to the whole lake. In fact, a lawful user of any lake, be it by public access or permission, has the right to any reasonable use of the lake."

Most of the references are applied to fishing in these case laws, which is find because that is exactly what we are doing... dirt fishing! "Why yes Mr. DNR Man, I am indeed exercising my right to FISH these here public waters below the ordinary high water mark!"

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  #74  
Old 04-09-2021, 09:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Swing4TheRing View post
My link that I found - https://mymlsa.org/government-and-le...s-in-michigan/


From your link - I love the "Floating Log Test" Law haha! A bit of history with that one!

So I pulled out this verbiage from the link...

"The right to public use of navigable lakes and streams includes the right of trespass upon the submerged soil, but does not extend to the uplands of riparian owners while in such waters, or in entering or departing from them.

If public access to navigable water has been established, the public user enjoys the same use rights and privileges of the private littoral owners. Thus, the right to fish a public lake extends to the whole lake. In fact, a lawful user of any lake, be it by public access or permission, has the right to any reasonable use of the lake."

Most of the references are applied to fishing in these case laws, which is find because that is exactly what we are doing... dirt fishing! "Why yes Mr. DNR Man, I am indeed exercising my right to FISH these here public waters below the ordinary high water mark!"

EXACTLY and as it was explained to me, IF a lake has ANY public access, NO homeowners can stop you from trespassing on the bottom lands PERIOD. it is a PUBLIC lake. Hope it helps. BUT IF you do get in a confrontation with a homeowner there are TWO things you can do. Wait for the police and give him the law OR, just move on to the neighbors piece of pie, just like parking strips in front of houses. A neighbor CANNOT complain about you being on someone else's SUPPOSED piece of property.

Michigan trespass law is CLEAR. If you are told you are trespassing and move NOTHING can be done. If you stand your ground and the police are called, you CAN get a citation if the police believe you are. DOESN'T mean the police are right. As everyone knows, I won't move. I have been right.

I want to say one more thing. Being a trained LEO, SOMETIMES you have to keep the peace. If one is called on you, the officer MIGHT side with the homeowner because he LIVES in his jurisdiction. If you move off his supposed piece of land, you also kept the peace. There has to be a COMPLAINANT when it comes to trespassing. Lowest crime in Michigan also. If you are on another piece of pie after a homeowner tells you to get off his, NO officer can give you a citation. There is absolutely NO complainant. Just like if there was someone in my neighbors yard. No way can I call the police and be a complainant. They might be there by permission.

We all know me. Govern yourself the way you feel is right. I am polite but firm. No rich homeowner can tell me he owns the water.

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  #75  
Old 04-09-2021, 09:37 AM
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Scuba i was a Macon Ga city cop for 28 yrs. in 1980 i was on a downtown main thru fair when a traffic unit was dispatched to a multi car wreck with injuries and possible fatalities in the south part of town. the unit went screaming down the road that night, but a car from Canada did not yield and the cop, who was actually going too fast for me, had to take evasive action. i actually pulled the driver over to see why he did not yield to the right lane, it was a 2 way 4 lane. he said he was from Canada and that was the fastest snow plow he said he had ever seen coming. apparently snow plows have blue lights, red and yellow. he was polite and the speeding cop car, i knew the driver, lead foot, shook him up. no ticket, no reason, he was nervous and lost on the trip to Florida after getting off interstate and trying to find it again. downtown was then and still is screwed up.. one ways.

and in El Paso Texas on a one time trip to California i heard sirens and saw green lights.. what the heck? Border patrol.... never seen those my self and thought about the Canadian guy.

In Georgia a log truck can have the logs hanging way off the back with a flag or yellow strobe light.

Now Georgia can have a blue light with red lights on a fire truck.

we did have an idiot pop a blue light on a car one time and pull someone over. we surrounded him and hauled him off. and kept his blue light, and gun, after he screwed up our drug squad surveillance, and charged him with HIS Drugs.

when i boat fished we had people hang ropes and chains to keep us away from docks. yea i know bad casting gets hooks and lines in things and drags stuff in water. but well, not much you can do. they will turn dock lights off but its their lights. diving around here would be downright hook hazardous on our lakes. the locals use huge tackle for catfish.

and yea... come on folks, give the law a break, they have enough to do...

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  #76  
Old 04-09-2021, 09:55 AM
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Originally Posted by dixiedigger57 View post
Scuba i was a Macon Ga city cop for 28 yrs. in 1980 i was on a downtown main thru fair when a traffic unit was dispatched to a multi car wreck with injuries and possible fatalities in the south part of town. the unit went screaming down the road that night, but a car from Canada did not yield and the cop, who was actually going too fast for me, had to take evasive action. i actually pulled the driver over to see why he did not yield to the right lane, it was a 2 way 4 lane. he said he was from Canada and that was the fastest snow plow he said he had ever seen coming. apparently snow plows have blue lights, red and yellow. he was polite and the speeding cop car, i knew the driver, lead foot, shook him up. no ticket, no reason, he was nervous and lost on the trip to Florida after getting off interstate and trying to find it again. downtown was then and still is screwed up.. one ways.

and in El Paso Texas on a one time trip to California i heard sirens and saw green lights.. what the heck? Border patrol.... never seen those my self and thought about the Canadian guy.

In Georgia a log truck can have the logs hanging way off the back with a flag or yellow strobe light.

Now Georgia can have a blue light with red lights on a fire truck.

we did have an idiot pop a blue light on a car one time and pull someone over. we surrounded him and hauled him off. and kept his blue light, and gun, after he screwed up our drug squad surveillance, and charged him with HIS Drugs.

when i boat fished we had people hang ropes and chains to keep us away from docks. yea i know bad casting gets hooks and lines in things and drags stuff in water. but well, not much you can do. they will turn dock lights off but its their lights. diving around here would be downright hook hazardous on our lakes. the locals use huge tackle for catfish.

and yea... come on folks, give the law a break, they have enough to do...
ALL states have different laws concerning lights and sirens. In Utah, you were REQUESTING the right of way. It was not your right to demand it. If I had my lights and siren on and for some reason a vehicle who was not breaking the law didn't see or hear me and I hit it, the accident would be MY fault.

Every state has different laws to abide by. In Michigan the police can do things that were not even close to being legal in Utah.

Diving around docks ANYWHERE is hazardous. I used to jump off the front of the seawall in front of boats. I have landed on a BBQ grill a picnic table and a chair. I now walk to the end of the dock at the rear of the boat and jump in, even if I have to swim to the front of it.

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  #77  
Old 04-09-2021, 11:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Soil Surgeon View post
This is the way of the internet , If a guy said that he helps little old ladies cross the street there would be someone who would claim he is luring them away to assault them . Some folks just thrive on stirring the pot .
BWHAAHAHAHAHAH!!

I am literally laughing out loud sitting at my desk. You killed me there. Love it!

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Old 04-09-2021, 11:39 AM
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Originally Posted by ScubaDetective View post
There is no reason for any officer to even talk to me when someone calls. BUT, if they do because they don't know the law themselves, I will help them and I have educated many. I have had some fantastic conversations with on duty LEO's

Ah hah! This makes me feel even better about my last experience with the Police. I shared it here, but basically, I was called on by a busy-body at a local school who was convinced I shouldn't be allowed to be there.

The police officer who showed up was greeted by me apologizing for the other citizen wasting their time. I then explained the law, and lack thereof, and she finally wrote the report up that the other person was harassing me.

This is a PRIME example of someone who thinks that their way of thinking means that I was doing something wrong. Whether it be driving the speed limit (and everyone "stacking up behind them" who wants to speed), or metal detecting a ball field... I was NOT in the wrong. Freedom from tyranny means that we aren't harassed by the police or other citizens who believe their way of thinking is law. Law enforcement is there to enforce the LAW. We breakdown as a society when Law enforcement starts enforcing opinion and their own reality.

It was such an immature and silly way to think, that person in the field, to assume that because he believed I was doing something morally wrong, that it IS wrong and should be against the law. Last I checked, if everything everyone thought SHOULD be against the law was, we'd live in a society that wasn't free at all.

And specifically to Torque... I'm trying to be kind here, please don't read harshness into this. In this thread, it seems you consistently blame the person who is following the law (going 65mph), having a bubble that is legal... and excuse those who are not. I literally made a Scooby Doo sound "RUH??" Maybe you didn't intend it that way, but that's the way it came across. "Don't follow the law, follow what I personally believe is morally correct." I know when I write it that way, that it's WEIRD. LOL I'm sure you didn't quite mean that.

I can totally get if you think there's a law being broken, but to act as the self-appointed morality police isn't ok in a forum. We all could see the similarity between Scuba's rig and the State police. And he explained it, and it's legal.
In my state, the police officers lights are all inside of their windows now.
The only way to spot them is by their grill guards. That means every black vehicle with a grill guard looks EXACTLY like a State Police car in the rearview mirror. Is it the same? Nope. It's not a police car. Heck, I've seen people stack up around cars that have thick luggage racks. LOL And you know what? Those "stacks of cars" aren't things I'm passing... why? I'm not speeding. I don't see the point. I'm not in such a hurry that I need to get there 42 seconds faster than the next guy, just to wait at the light.

The bubble on top sure looks like a police bubble, but it's NOT. That's what makes heads turn. And frankly, do you know why the police have VISIBLE markings? It's not so that people know who to pull over to, it's so they behave. LOL Police park their vehicles in places just to get cars to slow down. So... in that sense, Scuba is doing society a FAVOR. It works both ways. And it's legal.

As a happy forum member, to another forum member, I recommend you consider not only how this looks, but just exactly what you were advocating: advocating lack of conformance to the law [don't drive 65 if traffic is faster], but rather conforming to what you personally view as "correct." That's a no-win situation for you, and is too much akin to the Morality police. I'm fairly certain this isn't what you intended, but it's the way it looks from where I stand.

Cheers!

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Morality_police
"Morality police" is one of many names used to describe groups of people whose job (often self-appointed) is to enforce standards of moral behavior and religious adherence among the general public.

With or without an official mandate from the state, morality police tend to operate in nations and communities prone to extremist religious beliefs – particularly those in which one particular religion tends to be dominant. Unofficial morality police may be indistinguishable from what would in the west be more commonly known as lynch mobs. Some unofficial morality police groups appear to resemble Daily Mail readers who actively enforce their narrow and conservative views on how everyone else should act. Examples of this include the West Bank morality police who - among other valiant deeds - dealt harshly with Palestinians caught playing music too loudly on car stereos."


Skippy

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  #79  
Old 04-09-2021, 11:48 AM
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Originally Posted by ScubaDetective View post
You want to hear that? Well I was detecting parking strips in SLC Utah. A homeowner came out and told me to get off his lawn. I told him that I was on public property. He pushed his coat aside and showed me a badge. I said so you are a cop? He said yes. I reached for my wallet to get out my badge. He said to keep my hands where he could see them. I said if you really are a cop you need to learn the law. I put my headphones back on and went back to detecting. He yelled, someone is going to jail, and went back into his house.

I kept detecting and two SLC police cars pulled up at an angle. I put my detector down, raised my hands and said I was a state cop and I was armed. One asked to see my identification. I gave it to him and told him what transpired. They knocked on the door, got him out and he was right. Someone went to jail for impersonating a peace officer and it wasn't me. He had a security guard badge on a leather holder on his belt.
This is one of my favorites from you. I laugh every time I read it!

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Old 04-09-2021, 11:50 AM
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Originally Posted by FreeBirdTim View post
I wasn't referring to you. I was referring to the guys who feel the need to add childish emojis to every comment they make regarding my views on anything. Grow up, boys.


There, that ought to do it.

Skippy

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