Advice legal or otherwise National parks

Hdnsouth

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Lee's Summit, MO.
A friend contacted me about a train wreck in 1885 he'd found along the Gasconade river I researched it and found it's in the Mark Twain National forest in Missouri.
I know detecting in National forest is strictly forbidden but looking at the website I found horseback ridding, ATV use, Dirt bikes, to name a few are allowed.
How can metal detecting be any more destructive to the environment or preservation of artifacts than the above mentioned.
I know it's probably a lost cause but I think I'm up for it.
I know my letters would be ignored so my question is what type of lawyer would I contact I'm prepared to invest some money in the adventure and want it invested in the best area.
I hate seeing land that is paid for by tax payers being off limits to them.
Help me if you can but I'm upset enough to take it on regardless of the outcome.
 
It is my understanding that MDing is prohibited only in national parks. It is permissible in national forests except in specially designated areas. The USDA office can tell which areas are so designated.

I ran across one of these in the Sam Houston National Forest at the location of Grant's Colony, a post Civil War freedman's settlement. I discussed this with the NF archaeologist as part of a local history project, and he told me that metal detectors were not permitted in that area without a special permit requiring a research plan. He turned out to be a very nice fellow, and he offered to take several of us out to see the site.
 
It is my understanding that MDing is prohibited only in national parks. It is permissible in national forests except in specially designated areas. The USDA office can tell which areas are so designated.

I ran across one of these in the Sam Houston National Forest at the location of Grant's Colony, a post Civil War freedman's settlement. I discussed this with the NF archaeologist as part of a local history project, and he told me that metal detectors were not permitted in that area without a special permit requiring a research plan. He turned out to be a very nice fellow, and he offered to take several of us out to see the site.

Thanks I'll check it out I'm just getting started and want any advice I can get with it I'm sure some members can save me time and money.
 
According to an internet search... don't know if you saw this but it might be helpful.

" Mark Twain National Forest
Guidelines for METAL DETECTING

Unless otherwise posted, metal detecting is permitted in developed recreation areas.

It is permissible to collect modern coins or other modern items FROM THE SURFACE.

NO NEW GROUND DISTURBANCE IS PERMITTED.

Archaeological remains on federal land, known or unknown, are PROTECTED UNDER LAW. If you were to discover such remains, you should leave them undisturbed, stop metal detecting in that area, and notify the local Forest Service office.

Legal citation:

Property, 36 CFR 261.9: “The following are prohibited: (g) digging in, excavating, disturbing, injuring, destroying, or in any way damaging any prehistoric, historic or archaeological resources, structure, site, artifact, or property. (h) Removing any prehistoric, historic, or archaeological resources, structure, site, artifact, property.” "
 
According to an internet search... don't know if you saw this but it might be helpful.

" Mark Twain National Forest
Guidelines for METAL DETECTING

Unless otherwise posted, metal detecting is permitted in developed recreation areas.

It is permissible to collect modern coins or other modern items FROM THE SURFACE.

NO NEW GROUND DISTURBANCE IS PERMITTED.

Archaeological remains on federal land, known or unknown, are PROTECTED UNDER LAW. If you were to discover such remains, you should leave them undisturbed, stop metal detecting in that area, and notify the local Forest Service office.

Legal citation:

Property, 36 CFR 261.9: “The following are prohibited: (g) digging in, excavating, disturbing, injuring, destroying, or in any way damaging any prehistoric, historic or archaeological resources, structure, site, artifact, or property. (h) Removing any prehistoric, historic, or archaeological resources, structure, site, artifact, property.” "

Thanks I'm just getting started and wanting any advice I can get as far as I could find general detecting was off limits but that's the reason I posted this first.
 
According to an internet search... don't know if you saw this but it might be helpful.

" Mark Twain National Forest
Guidelines for METAL DETECTING

Unless otherwise posted, metal detecting is permitted in developed recreation areas.

It is permissible to collect modern coins or other modern items FROM THE SURFACE.

NO NEW GROUND DISTURBANCE IS PERMITTED.

Archaeological remains on federal land, known or unknown, are PROTECTED UNDER LAW. If you were to discover such remains, you should leave them undisturbed, stop metal detecting in that area, and notify the local Forest Service office.

Legal citation:

Property, 36 CFR 261.9: “The following are prohibited: (g) digging in, excavating, disturbing, injuring, destroying, or in any way damaging any prehistoric, historic or archaeological resources, structure, site, artifact, or property. (h) Removing any prehistoric, historic, or archaeological resources, structure, site, artifact, property.” "

Should've paid more attention no new ground disturbance in other words no digging and I'm wondering how it would be more damaging than an ATV or dirt bike
 
Should've paid more attention no new ground disturbance in other words no digging and I'm wondering how it would be more damaging than an ATV or dirt bike

That's a good question, especially when the ground is wet. I have never understood that one myself. :?:
 
That's a good question, especially when the ground is wet. I have never understood that one myself. :?:

Thanks I'm sure I'll hit a dead end but I'm going to try and think it'll get more attention from an attorney than from a letter from myself. Fighting government with no limit of tax payer or borrowed dollars I'm sure I'm heading down a dead end road but I want to try.
 
National parks, probably not. National forests, GO FOR IT. As far as the part about "modern items only" I never find anything old, do you? I consider anything newer than 200 yrs. old to be "new" afterall. And "disturbing the ground", well, ... I leaved no trace (cover my holes) so as not to have disturbED anything. Don't you ? :roll:
 
Hey,

My house is surrounded by the Mark Twain National Forest. Please take care if you do detect the site.

1. A lot will depend on the ranger in charge of the area that you are in as the ranger has final say over their district.

2. The forest service has it in writing "Do not excavate, remove, disturb
or deface historical or archeological resources."

3. The legal definition of an archeological resource in the state of Missouri is "anything man made or influenced by humans that is 50 years of age or older." (very simplified)

4. The forest service also has in writing "Metal detectors may be used
with proper Forest Service authority."

5. If this site is a known site on government land then it is undoubtedly "listed" and if you run into someone truly "gung ho", you could end up with both Federal and State problems for illegal activities on a listed archeological site.

I am not just talking off the top of my head here. I have spend a LOT of time researching the laws for detecting in Missouri. There is enough "statutes" online that contradict each other that a person could get into real trouble.

Doug
 
Should've paid more attention no new ground disturbance in other words no digging and I'm wondering how it would be more damaging than an ATV or dirt bike

Probably has nothing to do with the slight disturbance of digging.
More to do with preserving possible (unknown) historic sites.
Just a guess.
At least you wouldn't get detained for carrying a detector.
 
Probably has nothing to do with the slight disturbance of digging.
More to do with preserving possible (unknown) historic sites.
Just a guess.
At least you wouldn't get detained for carrying a detector.

I just don't understand if ATV's dirt bikes and horses are permitted I don't see the harm in a four to six inch refilled hole.
I've seen the ignored damage left by all three of the above.
 
Here lies the problem. I agree dirt bikes and ATV's would cause more damage than a detector, BUT they are NOT digging up HISTORIC artifacts while making a mess, YOU are,

Looks like they want to protect anything that is in the ground. Just like the great lakes want to protect the historic shipwrecks. WHY? Now that is a good question.

Zebra and other mussels are destroying any wood and metal shipwreck there is. Some laws make absolutely NO sense. But the archeologists have had laws passed to protect their interests.

Not going to say yea or nay. Just do your research and make sure you have some ammo in case you are confronted by an authority figure. That is the best advice I can give.
 
Hey,

My house is surrounded by the Mark Twain National Forest. Please take care if you do detect the site.

1. A lot will depend on the ranger in charge of the area that you are in as the ranger has final say over their district.

2. The forest service has it in writing "Do not excavate, remove, disturb
or deface historical or archeological resources."

3. The legal definition of an archeological resource in the state of Missouri is "anything man made or influenced by humans that is 50 years of age or older." (very simplified)

4. The forest service also has in writing "Metal detectors may be used
with proper Forest Service authority."

5. If this site is a known site on government land then it is undoubtedly "listed" and if you run into someone truly "gung ho", you could end up with both Federal and State problems for illegal activities on a listed archeological site.

I am not just talking off the top of my head here. I have spend a LOT of time researching the laws for detecting in Missouri. There is enough "statutes" online that contradict each other that a person could get into real trouble.

Doug

Thank you I always follow the law and am careful with the way I treat the land regardless if I'm in someone's front lawn or the middle of the woods.
As with most government laws they are left open to interpretation and when reading that ATV's dirt bikes and horses were allowed I know the first two have some restrictions however I know I don't leave behind as much damage as a horse does.
However the way you started out I live here sounded like you weren't sure about me either.
Thanks again and from the responses I was unclear about the laws and I should check a little deeper into the subject.
 
..... The forest service has it in writing "Do not excavate, remove, disturb or deface historical or archeological resources." ..... The legal definition of an archeological resource in the state of Missouri is "anything man made or influenced by humans that is 50 years of age or older." (very simplified) ....

Doug, that's true. While NFS land gets a resounding "yes" for md'ing (versus national parks, for instance), the condition is that you're only looking for new stuff. But .... seriously now .... in all your years of metal detecting: has anyone ever followed you around with a calculator doing the math on the ages of items you found ?

I've been at this for nearly 40 yrs, and have YET to have anyone scrutinize the dates of items I find :roll: So let's be real here: That's meant so that you don't go tromping on admitted sensitive monuments. And if someone is STILL really worried about this , and happens to (gasp) find a 1962 penny or dime, then all they need to do is re-insert it back into the ground. Presto, problem solved.

.... The forest service also has in writing "Metal detectors may be used with proper Forest Service authority." ....

where do you see this written in actual Forest Service law/rules ? If what you have a link to is someone's text answer, to someone else's question, then no, I do not consider that "law" or "rule". Not unless they point to actual code or law. Because otherwise, the old addages like "inquire at each kiosk you come to", or "with permission" type stuff, is often just a text/opinion "safe answer" given to "pressing questions", which actually exist no-where else, except that singular answer. They HAVE to have a source somewhere, for saying that it's "with permission".
 
My current understanding is that Mike Doran with the USFS wrote the following (2009) to clarify the regulations the USFS have in place and that it is still in effect. It speaks to using a MD on US Forests, NOT National Parks. I have 'bolded' and 'underlined' some of the contents in an attempt to help anyone who doesn't have time to do their own research.

I carry a copy of this when I MD on USFS & BLM lands to help LEO's understand their own regs [and I might add that I've had to use it on occasion to help educate:spiteful: some LEOs in the field or in conversation with some of their superiors]. I personally don't ever feel the burning desire to ask a local FS employee permission where I may or may not MD on NF/BLM lands. NO, I do not metal detect in National Parks, or at Historical Sites, or at National Monuments, or anywhere one would expect to find anything protected by ARPA or any other places where laws prohibit the use of a MD.


MINERAL, ROCK COLLECTING AND METAL DETECTING ON THE
NATIONAL FORESTS
1
It is Forest Service policy that the recreational use of metal detectors and the collection of
rocks and mineral samples are allowed on the National Forests. Generally, most of the
National Forests are open to recreational mineral and rock collecting, gold panning and
prospecting using a metal detector. This low impact, casual activity usually does not
require any authorization.
On some eastern Forests gold panning does require a letter of authorization due to the
high clay content of the soils. It is always wise to check with the local District Ranger if
you have questions. Some wilderness areas are closed to gold panning and metal
detecting.
Metal detecting is a legitimate means of locating gold or other mineral specimens and can
be an effective prospecting tool for locating larger mineral deposits. This activity can also
be conducted as a recreational activity locating lost coins, jewelry or other incidental
metallic items of little historical value.
Prospecting using a metal detector can be
conducted under the General Mining Laws and is covered under the Forest Service 36
CFR 228A locatable mineral regulations for lands open to mineral entry. Metal detecting
for treasure trove or lost items such as coins and jewelry is managed as a non mineralsrelated
recreation activity.
Metal detecting is a low surface impact activity that involves digging small holes rarely
more than six inches deep. Normally, metal detecting does not require a notice of intent
or written authorization since it only involves searching for and occasionally removing
small rock samples or mineral specimens (36 CFR 228.4(a)).
Metal detectors may be used on public land in areas that do not contain or would not
reasonably be expected to contain archaeological or historical resources. Normally,
developed campgrounds, swimming beaches, and other developed recreation sites are
open to recreational metal detecting unless there are archaeological or historical resources
present. In such cases, forest supervisors are authorized to close the area to metal
detecting and the closure would be posted at the site.
Such closure notices are not always
practical in undeveloped areas, and federal agencies have not identified every
archaeological site on public lands. It is possible; therefore, that you may encounter such
archaeological remains that have not yet been documented or an area that is not closed
even though it does indeed contain such remains. Archaeological remains on public land
are protected under law. If you were to discover such remains, you should leave them
undisturbed and notify a FS office.
The purpose of the restrictions to metal detecting on public lands is to protect historical
remains. The Code of Federal Regulations, (36 CFR 261.9) states, "The following are
prohibited: (g) Digging in, excavating, disturbing, injuring, destroying, or in any way
damaging any prehistoric, historic, or archaeological resources, structure, site, artifact, or
property. (h) Removing any prehistoric, historic, or archaeological resources, structure,
site, artifact, property." The Archaeological Resources Protection Act (ARPA, 16
U.S.C. 470cc:) also prohibits these activities, stating, "No person may excavate, remove,
damage, or otherwise alter or deface or attempt to excavate, remove, damage or otherwise
2
alter or deface any archaeological resources located on public lands or Indian lands
unless such activity is pursuant to a permit...” ARPA exempts the collection of coins for
personal use if the coins are not in an archaeological context. In some cases, historically
significant coins and other metallic artifacts may be part of an historical-period
archaeological site, in which case they would be considered archaeological resources and
are protected under law. These laws apply to all National Forest System land and do not
vary from state to state.
Four forms of metal detector use are recognized.
1. Searching for treasure trove: Treasure trove is defined as money, gems, or
precious metals in the form of coin, plate, or bullion that has been deliberately
hidden with the intention of recovering it later. This activity requires a Special
Use Permit under The Act of June 4, 1897 (16 U.S.C. 551). Forest Service
Manual 2724.4 states “allow persons to search for buried treasure on National
Forest System lands, but protect the rights of the public regarding ownership of or
claims on any recovered property.”
2. Prospecting: Using a metal detector to locate gold or other mineral deposits is an
allowed activity under the General Mining Laws and is subject to the 36 CFR
228A regulations. A Notice of Intent (36 CFR 228.4(a)) is normally not required
for prospecting using a metal detector. A Notice of Intent (NOI) is required for
any prospecting which might cause disturbance of surface resources. A plan of
operation is required for any prospecting that will likely cause significant
disturbance of surface resources. Normal metal detecting does not cause surface
impacts that require either a NOI or a Plan of Operation. People who use metal
detectors for prospecting should bear in mind that many of the mineralized lands
within the National Forests and open to mineral entry have been “claimed” by
others who have sole right to prospect and develop the mineral resources found on
the mining claim. A search of County and Bureau of Land Management records
should be made prior to prospecting to determine if an area has been claimed.
Normally, any gold found can be removed and kept. If the removal of the gold,
rocks, or minerals might cause disturbance of surface resources, beyond digging a
small shallow hole, a NOI may be required.
3. Searching for historic or prehistoric artifacts: Using a metal detector to locate
archaeological or historical remains is subject to the Antiquities Act of 1906 and
the Archeological Resources Protection Act of 1979 (ARPA) as amended and
requires a special use permit. Such permits are granted for scientific research
only, however, there are many ways to get involved with organized, scientific
research. See below for ways to use metal detectors for this purpose under
sanctioned public archaeology programs.
4. Recreational pursuits: The most common form of metal detector use is searching
for gold nuggets, lost coins, jewelry, and incidental metal items having no
historical value. Such use is common in developed campgrounds, swimming
areas, and picnic areas and requires no permit
. However, one must assume personal responsibility to notice if the area may indeed contain archaeological or
historical resources and if it does, cease metal detecting and notify a Forest
Service office. Not doing so may result in prosecution under the Code of Federal
Regulations or ARPA.
Metal detecting on the National Forests is recognized as a legitimate prospecting method
under the General Mining Laws and also as a recreational activity for the casual
collection of rocks and minerals. This policy does not permit the use of metal detectors in
or around known or undiscovered cultural or historic sites in order to protect our
valuable, non-renewable historical resources. However, recognizing the universal
interest in archaeology and history and the vast public knowledge of such resources, the
USDA Forest Service sponsors a public archaeology program through which metal
detector enthusiasts and others can help. Passport In Time (PIT) is a national program
inviting the public to work with agency archaeologists on historic preservation projects.
We have done numerous projects through PIT in cooperation with metal detecting clubs
and individuals. The cooperation has been beneficial for both the detectorists and
agency’s archaeologists. Locating archaeological sites becomes a joint endeavor and we
learn a great deal. If you would like more information on this program, call 1-800-281-
9176 or visit www.passportintime.com.
Mike Doran May 27, 2009
 
Mountain digger, a splendid post. Thanx. A few observations on that letter there:

A) Did you notice that it's CLEAR TO SEE in his text, where he cites authoritative laws/rules, in reference to what he's saying. Therefore the reader can clearly differentiate between actual law/rules, versus his rolling commentary on it, as he speaks/types. Therefore I would base my decisions on the actual law part of what he says, not any commentary he adds to it. JMHO.

B) Did you notice that NO WHERE IN THAT ENTIRE THING does it say "ask at each location you come to" or "with permission from local personnel" or ... whatever. About the closest is ever came to that, was when he said:

"....It is always wise to check with the local District Ranger if you have questions... "

Notice that's not a law. And .... well gee, I DON'T "have any questions". Therefore it's not a requirement to go asking "can I?" . And is not a "with permission" type statement.
 
Always check or someone will be using something in prison on you that resembles a pinpointer. Only difference is you'll be the one making noises:laughing:
 
The information that was asked about in my post came from the pamphlet put out for the Mark Twain National Forest. The number on the bottom is WFW 1/2012.

The Rolla Supervisor's Office is where it is distributed from. It is a pamphlet about fossil, rock, mineral collecting and about historic sites in the National Forest.

Doug
 
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