M.D. permission on a Federal installation

Bad Thad said:

So I work on an Army base and live next to it. Its' wooded training areas are so huge that when the feds bought all of the area a number of small, backwoods towns and farms were swallowed up. You can get hunting and fishing passes to these areas and I've stumbled across old foundations and unnatural clearings. I also have old maps with the locations of the old towns and churches/ graveyards. Now the million dollar question: anyone even know where to start to get permission?? As a vet, I went to the MWR and outdoor rec on post to pick their brains and they looked at me like I was speaking chinese. As I'm not wanting to visit a federal prison anytime soon, anyone know if it's possible to get permission and from where???

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I detect military bases all the time. And I'm not even a "vet", nor do I "work there", as you do, on both counts. And they allow other forms of recreation (hunting and fishing) as you say (as opposed to "closed bases", or something, as some of them are). So that adds a "3rd count". And then to add a "4th count", you even asked them, and they could cite nothing telling you there was any prohibitions.

Thus due to those 4 counts, then for the life of me, I can't figure out why you're asking more questions? I would have already gone. I mean, is there really anyone out there in the middle of the woods anyhow ?

One thing you gotta be aware of is that they have federal game wardens and range control vehicles patrolling/ driving in the wooded areas. A buddy of mine nearly got apprehended for picking up fat- lighter without "'wood gathering" permit. You also have to call and check in when you move from area to area while fishing and hunting with a pass. And yes, they do come and check your permits and licences. Also heard the stories of people being apprehended for being in training areas trolling for expended brass and exploded ordinance to sell for scrap. I'm not talking about pissing off the mayor for digging in the park...I'm worried about a federal trespassing charge!!! So no, not just gonna waltz in and start swinging...

Bad Thad said:

One thing you gotta be aware of is that they have federal game wardens and range control vehicles patrolling/ driving in the wooded areas. A buddy of mine nearly got apprehended for picking up fat- lighter without "'wood gathering" permit. You also have to call and check in when you move from area to area while fishing and hunting with a pass. And yes, they do come and check your permits and licences. Also heard the stories of people being apprehended for being in training areas trolling for expended brass and exploded ordinance to sell for scrap. I'm not talking about pissing off the mayor for digging in the park...I'm worried about a federal trespassing charge!!! So no, not just gonna waltz in and start swinging...

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Ok, understood. But in each thing you cite (moving from one lake to another, or gathering wood, or collecting brass for recycle, etc...), I would assume that the only someone can get "grief" for every one of those things, is that somehow there must be a prohibition. So what I'm saying is, that if the act of metal detecting does not have a prohibition (as I gather from the people who looked at you like you were speaking chinese), then ... how can those other illegal things, be compared to something that has no such prohibition ? Like, I wonder if .... since you say collecting spent casing/brass for recycle was a no-no (?), then maybe they can lump md'ing into that category ? Afterall, you're collecting metal too ?

Mind you there COULD be anyone who could morph something else to apply to detecting. It need not specifically say "no metal detecting" in order for someone to find some other sort of fault. You know, like they can say you disturbed cultural heritage, or defaced/altered when you dug, or that you "collected/harvested/took", etc... But so too can all such things be levied against md'rs anywhere, I suppose. In other words: if you think about it long enough and hard enough, you can always find a reason not to detect every speck of public land. Not saying to "throw caution to the wind", but just saying: if you're looking for things which "might" happen, or someone who "might not" like it, then that's the day when you might as well stick to private property. But sure, use common sense, and I agree that a federal military base has a bunch more "bored bureaucrats" than anytown USA city park. I agree with you there.

Hence yes, I'd be more careful. Like in this case:

A) you already asked, and they did not tell you that you couldn't [that's very powerful, if someone griped, is that you DID ask, and found silence on the subject, by the very people who had the power right then and there to have said "no you can't" ]

B) you're not bothering cultural heritage, because you're only finding new coins [right?? ]

C) you're not leaving any trace, holes, etc... thus you're not afoul of something related to alteration, defacement, etc...

D) You lost your wedding ring there last Fall, right?

E) You work there, you're a vet, public access and recreation is allowed.

F) Obviously you're going to be in the middle of nowhere, so odds of running into someone to check on any of the aforementioned points, is remote to begin with.

And if someone is still thinking that all military bases are off-limits to detecting because 1) they're federal, and 2) because they're military, this isn't necessarily the case. I have a true story of bumping into some MP's on a federal base, and .... if anyone wants to hear it, I'll type it out

I would start by talking with the Public Affairs Officer. He/she is usually an O-2 or O-3. I have personally MD'd Guantanamo Bay and never bother asking for permission and plenty of MP's drove past and just looked at me as I waved to them. In order to get what you want, just speak with the PAO (public affairs officer) and ask them what the rules are for MDing their, and be sure to show them your credentials. You should be fine as long as you aren't MDing a gun range or land mine disposal area

let us know how it goes!!

if you have any other questions, let me know.

Ha!! Good advice Ahzee... should of thought of the PAO. I'll check this week and post my findings.

You might try contacting the Provost Marshal or MP office on post. We used to hunt & fish all the time on post at Fort Hood and other posts and there are always restricted areas where clearance is required, such as impact areas, we could hunt them but checking is a must unless you want a live fire accident. I imagine metal detecting would be no difference.

You wouldn't believe all the cool stuff I found living on Ft. Hood in the 70's. If only Id of started detecting back then. Good Luck!

PS: Hit the obstacle courses if you get permission, that's where my brother & I would go to get pocket change and it was easy pickings without a detector. Could be old coins under the surface too.

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If you're going to go the route of asking more persons there, here's a tip:

When you do so, don't "ask permission" to metal detect. Eg.: variations of "is it ok to metal detect? and so forth. Instead you want to phrase it this way: "Is there any mention of [or prohibition of] metal detectors in the rules?" You see how the latter way of phrasing it puts the burden of proof (subconsciously) on them to PRODUCE such a rule, if it existed. But the former way of phrasing it opens you up for a potentially whimsical answer. Or sends them scurrying to find something ELSE they *think* applies.

Same has worked as an improvement for persons thinking they must ask cities too: They say "is there anything that prohibits", rather than "can I do such & such". It's not fool-proof (sometimes someone can still morph something ELSE they think applies), but at least it's an improvement.

and when you think of it:

And when you think of it, if it "rings true" to put the burden on them to cite any such rule, if one existed, then that just brings us back around full circle: If there IS any rule that forbade metal detectors, then logically, it would be one you could look up for yourself.

For example, don't they have a pamphlet or on-line list of rules and regulations for campers and hunters? (like, the very list which would have listed those other things you say people ran afoul of).

Rules and regulations are only created to resolve chronic problems not already covered. Metal Detecting isn't a very common activity, least not to the point of achieving specific rules. Squeezing yourself in any place that hasn't had to address the activity, because it wasn't a major problem, is a good way to get specific wordage, signage, and some government vacation time.

I know that some activities are allowed on federal land, but only if you get a permit, illegal, with fines and potential jail time, if you don't. Growing up, we burned wood to heat the house. Our primary source, was the Mt. Hood National Forrest, $5.00 for a one day permit. They told you where, when you could cut the wood. Pretty good deal, and a way for them to get rid of the deadfall. They still had a few cutting down live trees, or thinking that $5 pass was a lifetime membership.

Is it okay to do anything you want, until someone better versed educates you? Sure, you get a lot more crusty pennies in your pocket, until that day, then it comes down to the gamble. Will they buy your BS about not knowing, or self justification, and let it pass with a warning? Or are they going to take more than those crusty coins, and a few months of your time? You'll never know, unless you play the game, or ask before you hunt...

HarveyH48 said:

Rules and regulations are only created to resolve chronic problems not already covered. Metal Detecting isn't a very common activity, least not to the point of achieving specific rules. Squeezing yourself in any place that hasn't had to address the activity, because it wasn't a major problem, is a good way to get specific wordage, signage, and some government vacation time.

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Harvey, when one starts with the premise that "metal detecting = harmful, dangerous, and inherently intrinscially wrong", then everything else you're saying would logically follow true. For example: Substitute frisbee flying in this equation. You would probably object and say "but frisbee flying is harmless" (and I would agree). Ok, then why do you start with the premise that md'ing = wrong, dis-liked, dangerous, damaging, etc... ? Since when ?

HarveyH48 said:

....I know that some activities are allowed on federal land, but only if you get a permit, illegal, with fines and potential jail time, if you don't....

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Ok. And what does that have to do with metal detecting, with which it's not dis-allowed, nor does it have permits. I mean, sure: if some federal spotch of land had it illegal, Fine. If some federal splatch of land had a permit for it , fine. But if not .... then what are we talking about ?

HarveyH48 said:

....Is it okay to do anything you want, until someone better versed educates you?

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This statement, again, assumes someone is doing something wrong. Why are we starting with that premise ? And no, you don't let someone else "educate you", you educate yourself. All laws are available to look up. They are publically available, for anyone to look at.

Depends on where you plan to hunt. It sounds like you want to hunt off the occupied areas of the post, which means you need to talk to range control. They control everything that happens in those areas. Some range control offices don't even want people driving on paved roads if they don't know you're in the area.

don't forget what those areas are intended for. Live-fire ranges for small arms, crew served and even artillery. Lots of opportunity for stray rounds which is why they are VERY controlling of movements and activities.

Bad Thad said:

You can get hunting and fishing passes to these areas................................................anyone know if it's possible to get permission and from where???

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I would try where you say you can get passes.

Its an army base and not a park. I would ask permission for sure, as it seems to be a more serious place then recreational.

Good luck with it!

Tom_in_CA said:

Harvey, when one starts with the premise that "metal detecting = harmful, dangerous, and inherently intrinscially wrong", then everything else you're saying would logically follow true. For example: Substitute frisbee flying in this equation. You would probably object and say "but frisbee flying is harmless" (and I would agree). Ok, then why do you start with the premise that md'ing = wrong, dis-liked, dangerous, damaging, etc... ? Since when ?

What's with the Frisbees? Has nothing to do with anything. Check your first 2 or 3 "TRUE STORY" threads, we discussed Frisbees. No need to get repetitious, unless you are running out of material...


Ok. And what does that have to do with metal detecting, with which it's not dis-allowed, nor does it have permits. I mean, sure: if some federal spotch of land had it illegal, Fine. If some federal splatch of land had a permit for it , fine. But if not .... then what are we talking about ?

Cutting firewood is illegal in a National Forest, unless you obtain a permit. They had a who wall full of literature detailing what they expect when they issue permits firewood was just on pamplet. Most everything one would do freely in any other forest, can be done there, just in specific areas, times, some restriction. Mostly, I think the permits let them know you are out there, what your doing, and that you are inform, and hopefully being responsible. It's not a way to empty your wallet, or control everything.

This statement, again, assumes someone is doing something wrong. Why are we starting with that premise ? And no, you don't let someone else "educate you", you educate yourself. All laws are available to look up. They are publically available, for anyone to look at.

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Talking to people doesn't imply anything, it informs them, allows them a chance to share their views on what you are proposing. You've got your way of doing things, and I'm sure it's been refined over the years, and in your area. Doesn't mean it'll instantly work for everyone, in every location in America as well. If you talk to people first, they are less likely ninja up on you, and demand to know what you are doing, school you on the rules about "NO DIGGING ALLOWED". You'd know if it's eventually going to be an issue, or if it's nothing to be concern about, rather than ASSUMING, at worst, you'll walk away with a warning.

HarveyH48 said:

......rather than ASSUMING, at worst, you'll walk away with a warning.

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Nope. Not suggesting anyone "assume" anything. They/you/we are welcome to look up said rules. And so too are those you ask (if you go the route of asking) supposedly supposed to base their answers on the rules. Yes? No? I mean, Harvey, what if a cop gave you a ticket for wearing a blue shirt. Wouldn't you ask him "but officer, where is it written, or what law says, that I can't wear blue shirts?"

But here's where it gets interesting Harvey: Let's assume for sake of argument that you agree that any answer you get, is "based on rules", and NOT ambiguous, arbitrary, and whimsical mood based thing. Right? Then if that's the case, presto, look up the rules for yourself, stay within their parameters, and presto, you haven't assumed anything.

or how about

Or how about this: Let's say the OP here was going to go fishing. And let's say that while he's fishing, he decides he's going to skip stones on the pond. So you tell me: does he need permission to do that, or no ? If not, why not ? Apply everything you've said to me here about detecting, and I can't understand why a person wouldn't "check to be sure" before doing so ?

The only reason I can think of, is where someone would say "but skipping stones on the pond is different". Ok, sure. And what intrinsic quality makes it different ? I bet I can indeed find laws that .... given enough morphing, could indeed be made to say or mean "no skipping stones". For example: disturbing wild-life". Or "altering and removing", etc... etc.... Why wouldn't I ask then ?

Tom_in_CA said:

Nope. Not suggesting anyone "assume" anything.

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Tom_in_CA said:

Let's assume

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LOL this forum is awesome.

just make sure you dont have a take a large historic thing... at least not make it known.. i'm not sure with military lands but federal lands i am told at least for my state you can detect just not take anything over 50 years old... (and my 50 years old is if it has a recognizable time area)

SafeMode said:

LOL this forum is awesome.

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haha, good one safe-mode, well all I can say is: look at the context where each of those quotes was lifted . One was asking if the other md'r assumed I was correct (ie.: between 2 md'rs themselves). While the other was in relation to the md'rs and the outside entity/authority.

Bad Thad said:

One thing you gotta be aware of is that they have federal game wardens and range control vehicles patrolling/ driving in the wooded areas. A buddy of mine nearly got apprehended for picking up fat- lighter without "'wood gathering" permit. You also have to call and check in when you move from area to area while fishing and hunting with a pass. And yes, they do come and check your permits and licences. Also heard the stories of people being apprehended for being in training areas trolling for expended brass and exploded ordinance to sell for scrap. I'm not talking about pissing off the mayor for digging in the park...I'm worried about a federal trespassing charge!!! So no, not just gonna waltz in and start swinging...

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Yes you are going to need written permission from someone in authority in this situation. May or may not be that hard to get. Start at the top of the Chain of Command and work your way down rather than vice-versa. Stick with it till you get that pass. The site sounds like it would be worth the effort. Good luck.