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  #21  
Old 07-30-2020, 05:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom_in_CA View post
I highly doubt anyone is patrolling creeks and concluding "oh me oh my, that md'r is 'disturbing' the creek bottom "
Don't be surprised. In my state DNR is very strict with game and land laws. We don't have that law...but if we did...I would bet it would be enforced. Maybe not kids playing in the water...but people digging...definitely.

Also, all state property is off limits to metal detecting here.
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  #22  
Old 07-30-2020, 05:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Nubster View post
..... Also, all state property is off limits to metal detecting here.
You're in West Virginia, right ? If so, where are you getting the info that "all state property is off limits to md'ing" ?

Sounds like it's silent on-the-subject, according to this :

http://www.fmdac.org/west-virginia-state-regulat.html

Oh sure, the usual obligatory boiler plate "cultural heritage" verbiage. Fine then, you're only looking for modern stuff and nuggets, eh ? But no, I see now express specific wording that says "no md'ing @ all state land in WV"

And BTW, even if you found something in WV state parks wording that DID specifically say "no md'ing", then be aware that not all state land is state PARK land. There's various types of state land. For example, road right of way. And turf surrounding state buildings, eminent domain not yet classified "park", etc...

In CA, we also have the same sort of obligatory cultural heritage verbiage. But you can hunt state of CA beaches (which are administered by the state), till we're blue in the face and no one cares. Same for the inland parks, as long as they're not an obvious historic sensitive monument. Hence, no, the cultural heritage verbiage does not necessarily mean "no md'ing".
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  #23  
Old 07-31-2020, 10:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Nubster View post
Don't be surprised. In my state DNR is very strict with game and land laws. We don't have that law...but if we did...I would bet it would be enforced. Maybe not kids playing in the water...but people digging...definitely.

Also, all state property is off limits to metal detecting here.
I inspected and enforced waterway (tidal and non-tidal) in Maryland for near 40 years. A lot in the Chesapeake Bay tidal waterways. If you think especially this time of year if your MDing in a creek with a muddy plume around you, and anyone going by in a boat, canoe, or even from the shoreline likely won't care you would be doing and not call the state, you would be sadly mistaken. Now with that said with my time there I never got one call/complaint about someone MDing in a waterway. Does it require a state permit? Technically yes (in Maryland). Why? Because you are changing the creek cross section from what it was. Other concerns as mentioned above. Additionally turning the creek brown from dislodging the sediments is another no no (sediment pollution law). I just stating the facts. I retired 6 months ago from all that. So in short to minimize the chance of trouble MDing in Maryland and/or Virginia don't stir up the mud, stay away from oyster bars/leases and keep it to one or two people, and you get by. Or to be safe apply for the license/permit. And can't subscribe to purposely not looking into what's required and play ignorance if you get caught and alls good. In Maryland there are civil fines if it was determined you needed a permit and didn't have one weather you where aware of the permit requirement or not. Civil fines are not like traffic tickets, they can range in the thousands of dollars potentially. Virginia is likely similar. Y'all take this however you want. But that facts need to be out there and you make your decisions from that. Think enough said at least from me.
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  #24  
Old 07-31-2020, 01:24 PM
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Does Maryland frown on bank/shallows fishermen, inshore skiff fishermen, trotline crabbers, cast net bait minnowers, archery/spear/gig fishermen, poling boaters, trappers, waterfowl hunters and their pooches, fossil hunters, etc. muddying their gin clear estuarine waters by donning waders, or not, or swimming in shallows or skinny dipping or whatever? Doubtless, there exists a marshland snorkeling community out there.
Does Maryland permit airboating (South Carolina makes it difficult, apparently, while the Gulf states seem to dote on it)? Enquiring minds want to know!
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  #25  
Old 07-31-2020, 01:35 PM
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Originally Posted by kweis View post
I inspected and enforced waterway (tidal and non-tidal) in Maryland for near 40 years. ....
I have no doubt that if us CA hunters went and questioned 40 yr. veterans of "Inspector/enforcer" employees, of CA state lands/waters, that we too could find "dire sounding answers" like that, as well. Shame on us for not asking enough questions

Last edited by Tom_in_CA; 07-31-2020 at 03:38 PM.
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  #26  
Old 07-31-2020, 02:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Rock Jock View post
Does Maryland frown on bank/shallows fishermen, inshore skiff fishermen, trotline crabbers, cast net bait minnowers, archery/spear/gig fishermen, poling boaters, trappers, waterfowl hunters and their pooches, fossil hunters, etc. muddying their gin clear estuarine waters by donning waders, or not, or swimming in shallows or skinny dipping or whatever? Doubtless, there exists a marshland snorkeling community out there.
Does Maryland permit airboating (South Carolina makes it difficult, apparently, while the Gulf states seem to dote on it)? Enquiring minds want to know!
The proper way to word the question to the "powers that be", is not to ask: "Can I hunt fossils, and "can I fish and spear", and "can I wade", etc.... Instead, you should waltz in and ask: "Hi, can I disturb the bottom of the water please ?". Then sit back and bask in their "No" answer.

Hurry, go do the right thing and word the questions correctly !
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  #27  
Old 07-31-2020, 03:28 PM
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When I decide to MD in the creeks, marshes and estuaries of the East Coast, I will try to not change the cross-sectional profile of watercourses as I collect my prizes. I will make sure to reseat my divots and plugs in the bottom.
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  #28  
Old 07-31-2020, 03:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Rock Jock View post
... I will make sure to reseat my divots and plugs in the bottom.
Well of course. Because .... heavens knows that there are enforcers out there, with snorkel and scuba gear, that are inspecting the bottom of the muddy lakes and streams to make sure all those harmful md'rs aren't "disturbing", eh ? So it's not just turfed parks that garner attention from people who think we "might leave holes". Now there are duly -appointed government agents, armed with scuba gear, who inspect the water-way bottoms for (gasp) "disturbance", eh ?

Obviously I just am jesting. Because, of course, LEO's have BIGGER things to worry about these days. I highly doubt any LEO who sees some dude md'ing while wading, has any concept of any connection to "disturbance". I'll bet they don't even pay an md'r a second glance. It amazes me how some md'rs can fret themselves silly and somehow think that "all the eyes of the world are waiting to pounce on us".

Also, even on the extreme fluke occasion that someone DID want to make an issue about it (an overzealous ranger with WAY too much time on his hands ?), then you're right about simply covering your hole. Because then presto: You haven't disturbED or alterED anything, now have you ?
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  #29  
Old 07-31-2020, 03:46 PM
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"It amazes me how some md'rs can fret themselves silly and somehow think that "all the eyes of the world are waiting to pounce on us"."
That's because we run off and hide with our precious.

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  #30  
Old 07-31-2020, 03:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom_in_CA View post
You're in West Virginia, right ? If so, where are you getting the info that "all state property is off limits to md'ing" ?
Directly from a DNR officer that I work with.
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  #31  
Old 07-31-2020, 05:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom_in_CA View post
So .... let me understand this correctly : If some kids go wading, and "disturb" the muddy/sandy bottom of a creek, with their splashing around and wading, then: They need a "permit" , eh ? I don't think so. Nor do I consider md'ing to be "disturbing" any worse than the mere act of wading there, or dragging your fishing lure through mud that stirred up the bottom, etc....

I think that "disturb" thing is no doubt for larger scale stuff, and was never meant to be applied to innocuous things like what we do.

Because, so too does parks , for example, have rules that forbid "disturbing" (or "altering", etc...) . Yet no one assumes that means md'ing, as long as he's leaving no damage, then presto, he has not "disturbED" anything, now has he ? I highly doubt anyone is patrolling creeks and concluding "oh me oh my, that md'r is 'disturbing' the creek bottom "
Nate's thread questions "creek detecting", not all these scenarios your bringing into the post Tom, so that's what my reply pertained too... disturbing creek bottoms detecting. Here's the permit, which is policed by Virgina Fish and Game Wardens just like your fishing license. Rules/regs slip that comes with the permit, clearly states you've been given the right to disturb the creek bottom to retrieve targets while detecting. It is basically a work permit like the large scale stuff.
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  #32  
Old 07-31-2020, 06:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Nubster View post
Directly from a DNR officer that I work with.
I wonder if he could direct you to where that supposed law exists in actual print. Because, believe it or not, a DNR officer can spout things that he thinks are the case, but may-not-in-fact hold water.
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  #33  
Old 07-31-2020, 06:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Fredneck View post
Nate's thread questions "creek detecting", not all these scenarios your bringing into the post Tom, so that's what my reply pertained too... disturbing creek bottoms detecting. Here's the permit, which is policed by Virgina Fish and Game Wardens just like your fishing license. Rules/regs slip that comes with the permit, clearly states you've been given the right to disturb the creek bottom to retrieve targets while detecting. It is basically a work permit like the large scale stuff.
Hey there Fredneck, a few things I would say about this :

a) I have a sneaking suspicion about how such a "permit" got dreamed up, as something that needed "permitting" in the first place. I'll bet it was because persons, way-back-when, went knocking on doors, asking "Can I" questions, and swatting hornet's nests. So that that "commission" needed to "address the pressing issue".

b) I would be curious if anyone was ever "carded" to show that thing there where you are ?

We have, for example, a few cities in CA that likewise dreamed up an md'ing permits for their city parks (perhaps 3 cities in all of CA). San Jose, for example, north of me . Yet oddly, no one can EVER remember ever being carded to show it. Even if you make circles around park workers, they pay you no mind. So the "permit" has become somewhat of a joke.
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  #34  
Old 07-31-2020, 06:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom_in_CA View post
Hey there Fredneck, a few things I would say about this ;

b) I would be curious if anyone was ever "carded" to show that thing there where you are ? .
Our Game Wardens are well schooled on this, personally I have not, but folks that hunt the same waters as I have, including a friend of mine.
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  #35  
Old 07-31-2020, 07:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Fredneck View post
Our Game Wardens are well schooled on this, .....
No doubt d/t the constant drum-beat of MD'rs who made it an issue over the years. Oh well.

thanx for the followup answer.
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  #36  
Old 07-31-2020, 08:25 PM
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  #37  
Old 08-01-2020, 10:48 AM
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@ Rock Jock
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  #38  
Old 08-01-2020, 02:38 PM
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All I did was state the facts of what's out there and what maybe or is required. Each state is different. Virginia and Maryland are like thinkers in regulation of Chesapeake Bay tidal waters. A lot of the background of these regulations have roots back to colonial times. How these regulations got created in the first place should be a mute point here. The question should be do I need something or not to MD in the creek? Whatever state your in, the answer should be just make a call to the permitting (environmental) agency in the state that would handle that. To all that may not know the C Bay and its tributaries are the most regulated likely in the country. In Maryland virtually each tidal creek has its own citizen environmental "watchdog" group that patrol these creeks nearly year round looking for something that someone may be doing that at least in their mind is affecting the creek negatively or they feel is illegal. But again I have never seen or heard of a problem with a MDer in the water ever. Does this mean no one does this here, of course not. Likely were not seen, didn't stir up the mud much, and or they were buy themselves and not doing it in front of someone's waterfront lot that they pay 10,000 grand in property taxes on. There is a utuber that has a video hunting in One of Virginia's tidal creeks (Nortern Neck area I think) where he got into an argument with a shoreline property owner. Honestly can't remember the name but sure it's easy enough to look up. All the points he told the property owner were absolutely correct and he had his permit but the property owner was still p***** because he just didn't want them there in the water in front of his house. This is usually what gets called in state environment officals and point out how things can happen.
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  #39  
Old 08-01-2020, 04:00 PM
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Originally Posted by kweis View post
.... How these regulations got created in the first place should be a mute point here...
I would disagree with you on this. It's not a moot point. It is important for us md'rs to realize HOW they got "created in the first place". So as to nip it in the bud going forward.

Originally Posted by kweis View post
.... just make a call to the permitting (environmental) agency in the state that would handle that. ....
Sure. Let's all just "make calls to permitting /governing people". And then, presto, we can all just become the latest victims of "No one cared till you asked" phenomenon. And then, presto, new laws and new "no's" will be passed out, as answers to these "pressing questions". It's as if we can be our own worst enemy

Why can't md'rs just look things up for themselves if they're skittish ? Why this feeling that we need to have express "yes" everywhere, as if we are evil and dangerous and need express sanctions ?
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