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  #21  
Old 07-10-2017, 12:45 AM
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Originally Posted by ohiochris View post
You see people fishing all the time , in many places its so common that nobody gives it a second thought or even remembers seeing it. But as you know , someone swinging a metal detector sticks out like a sore thumb for some reason ....
Chris, yes, fishing is just a "given", eh ? No one blinks twice at that. As opposed to "a man swinging a geiger counter thingy" and it draws stares from curious lookie-lou's, eh ? People will think "Gee I wonder what the best thing he ever found is ?" and "Gee I wonder how deep that goes ?" Or "gee maybe he'll leave a hole", etc....

So there can be scores of person who (gasp) step off the sidewalk and no one cares. But sure: detecting is not something you see every day. And hence might elicit the question "gee is he really supposed to be here ?" (that the fisherman is less likely to bump into).
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  #22  
Old 07-10-2017, 03:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Tom_in_CA View post
Chris, yes, fishing is just a "given", eh ? No one blinks twice at that. As opposed to "a man swinging a geiger counter thingy" and it draws stares from curious lookie-lou's, eh ? People will think "Gee I wonder what the best thing he ever found is ?" and "Gee I wonder how deep that goes ?" Or "gee maybe he'll leave a hole", etc....

So there can be scores of person who (gasp) step off the sidewalk and no one cares. But sure: detecting is not something you see every day. And hence might elicit the question "gee is he really supposed to be here ?" (that the fisherman is less likely to bump into).
Exactly.

I hunt city property all the time and get asked a lot if I am supposed to be doing that on city property. Of course my answer is " Yep , I checked ". But why was I asked that in the first place ? They don't do that when I am fishing , or stepping off the sidewalk ,....or even cutting across the field to save a few steps. The multitudes of gray areas some people see in every situation have caught up to us all , much of the public sees detectorists as disrespectful of rules and property , possibly criminal.

But I can carry my fishing pole through massive crowds of people and fish right next to them and Im all but invisible , I don't think anyone would even realize I am there.

So whats the difference ???.....there is nothing suspicious about fishing , but carry a detector and everyone looks.....like you are carrying a weapon or going to blow up the world with it or something. Suspicious as all get out for some reason.....fact.

How positive are you that you haven't been part of the negative influence on public opinion at times ? Based on some of the replies you give on here I would bet money that you have been.

People often feel like they are getting away with something , but adding more straw to the camels back until it eventually brakes isn't really getting away with it.....is it ? We all continually face the negative results of the " gray areas " of others. More and more opportunities get lost all the time as the last straw puts areas off limits or poisons public perception. But if you don't really care then none of it matters I suppose.

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  #23  
Old 07-10-2017, 11:29 AM
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Originally Posted by ohiochris View post
Exactly.

I hunt city property all the time and get asked a lot if I am supposed to be doing that on city property. Of course my answer is " Yep , I checked ". But why was I asked that in the first place ? They don't do that when I am fishing , or stepping off the sidewalk ,....or even cutting across the field to save a few steps. The multitudes of gray areas some people see in every situation have caught up to us all , much of the public sees detectorists as disrespectful of rules and property , possibly criminal.

But I can carry my fishing pole through massive crowds of people and fish right next to them and Im all but invisible , I don't think anyone would even realize I am there.

So whats the difference ???.....there is nothing suspicious about fishing , but carry a detector and everyone looks.....like you are carrying a weapon or going to blow up the world with it or something. Suspicious as all get out for some reason.....fact.

How positive are you that you haven't been part of the negative influence on public opinion at times ? Based on some of the replies you give on here I would bet money that you have been.

People often feel like they are getting away with something , but adding more straw to the camels back until it eventually brakes isn't really getting away with it.....is it ? We all continually face the negative results of the " gray areas " of others. More and more opportunities get lost all the time as the last straw puts areas off limits or poisons public perception. But if you don't really care then none of it matters I suppose.
Excellent post. I don't disagree that metal detectors is an odd-ball action, that elicits curious stares. And then presto: mental questions get applied, and then presto: Someone can say "that's trespassing" , or "that's not allowed" etc... WHILE THE VERY SAME ACTIVITY (eg. trespassing by stepping off the sidewalk, or cleats that "made holes", etc....) goes un-questioned and un-noticed.

So two different persons can essentially be violating the same thing, yet ... one is innocuous (not noticed and no one cares) and the other isn't. Hmmm.


So apply the question to the public side of the equation : Take manicured turfed parks for example: You and I might know that we'll leave no trace. Right ? Yet to a curious on-looker, the wheels of their brain start turning (EVEN IF YOU'RE NOT EVEN STOOPED TO DIG), and they might think "aha ! Holes !" Right ? Whereas multiple other park users who might equally harm the grass never get noticed. Right ?

To me, that dilemma is the same analogy of the fisherman vs the md'r on some sort of corporate land, vacant lot, etc..... One is ignored, yet the other is scrutinized. Yet technically, each is equally guilty. Eh ? Have I summed up what you're saying correctly ?

Yes I get that. So when it comes to manicured turfed parks, I have long since given up trying to get red-carpets rolled out for me. Eg.: permissions, clarifications, getting people to condone it, etc.... It will simply never happen. And all that I will end up doing is getting more rules to address "my pressing issue". ie.: more "no's". So when it comes to manicured turf, I have taken the tactic of being as invisible as possible. NOT that I think I'm "doing something illegal". But SIMPLY because I'm aware of the odd-ball factor that md'rs present. So rather than swat hornet's nests, it's gotten to where I do 99% of my manicured turf hunting at night nowadays. So peaceful. So serene. No one around to gripe. Presto, problem solved.

So how does that apply to the OP topic here ? Well .... if a tree falls in the woods and no one is around to hear it, then what ?
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  #24  
Old 07-10-2017, 01:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom_in_CA View post
Excellent post. I don't disagree that metal detectors is an odd-ball action, that elicits curious stares. And then presto: mental questions get applied, and then presto: Someone can say "that's trespassing" , or "that's not allowed" etc... WHILE THE VERY SAME ACTIVITY (eg. trespassing by stepping off the sidewalk, or cleats that "made holes", etc....) goes un-questioned and un-noticed.

So two different persons can essentially be violating the same thing, yet ... one is innocuous (not noticed and no one cares) and the other isn't. Hmmm.


So apply the question to the public side of the equation : Take manicured turfed parks for example: You and I might know that we'll leave no trace. Right ? Yet to a curious on-looker, the wheels of their brain start turning (EVEN IF YOU'RE NOT EVEN STOOPED TO DIG), and they might think "aha ! Holes !" Right ? Whereas multiple other park users who might equally harm the grass never get noticed. Right ?

To me, that dilemma is the same analogy of the fisherman vs the md'r on some sort of corporate land, vacant lot, etc..... One is ignored, yet the other is scrutinized. Yet technically, each is equally guilty. Eh ? Have I summed up what you're saying correctly ?

Yes I get that. So when it comes to manicured turfed parks, I have long since given up trying to get red-carpets rolled out for me. Eg.: permissions, clarifications, getting people to condone it, etc.... It will simply never happen. And all that I will end up doing is getting more rules to address "my pressing issue". ie.: more "no's". So when it comes to manicured turf, I have taken the tactic of being as invisible as possible. NOT that I think I'm "doing something illegal". But SIMPLY because I'm aware of the odd-ball factor that md'rs present. So rather than swat hornet's nests, it's gotten to where I do 99% of my manicured turf hunting at night nowadays. So peaceful. So serene. No one around to gripe. Presto, problem solved.

So how does that apply to the OP topic here ? Well .... if a tree falls in the woods and no one is around to hear it, then what ?


How does this apply to the OP topic ?

Because the fact that other people ignore the signs or fish there really dont mean detecting there will go just as unnoticed or ignored. The owners concern over liability may in fact be heightened by this action , just as in the stepping off the sidewalk scenerio , detecting and all its implications....obvious and implied or assumed.....are FAR from comparable. Once you cross a certain threshold in public understanding , the trespassing signs and owner concerns become even more valid and more of an issue.

" Other people do it " does not mean you can.

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Old 07-10-2017, 01:37 PM
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Okay, when I posted this thread in the first place it was just because I'm new to the sport and I wanted to see what you guys with more experience had to say. It is interesting that there is not a clear consensus. But I wasn't even going to go over there when I posted it, but all this talk got me thinking more about it. So this morning I called the business offices of the owner, and got right through to him. That surprised me, as I didn't even expect him to be there. He remembered me from when I was a kid, and that was a long time ago, so that surprised me too. He said sure, go for it. I mentioned the signs and the fishermen, and he said that the signs had nothing to do with liability. He said that he put them up because people were going in there without asking. He said that people call him all the time to go fishing in there and that he hardly ever turns anyone down if they ask, he just doesn't like people treating it like they own it, when they don't. So maybe there is a lesson to be learned here. So now I'm going to go over there and check it out. I'm glad I posted the thread. It sent me on a journey. It was a good experience, and I learned something.
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  #26  
Old 07-10-2017, 01:57 PM
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Originally Posted by ohiochris View post
How does this apply to the OP topic ? ....
Just trying to point out the endless scale of degrees. One person "steps off the sidewalk" and the next person won't dare. Some places "police action is sure to follow" (ie.: "someone cares"), other places , it is silly think anyone cares. Hence a million shades of grey. And then each person's caution level kicks in too.

Example: A city near me is very touristy. And on weekend nights, it can be very hard to find parking in the high-end restaurant downtown zone. So for whatever reason, scores of people have figured out that .... since the bank closes at 5pm, then that lot simply fills up with cars. They are obviously not going to the bank. They just know that ... who cares ? The bank is closed.

My wife, who is about the most timid and skittish person around, pulled in there (to join the legions of other cars) to park one night while we were downtown for dinner. I (jokingly proddingly) pointed out to her that there's a little sign at the parking lot that says "private property, bank customers only" (you know, those little signs on the light-poles that no one ever reads). To which my wife said "the bank's closed".

Ok, you tell me: "does that make it right?". If she sends an email to Bank of America corporate headquarters 500 miles away asking permission to park there (for the restaurant), they would be obliged to tell her "no". Yet it's quite obvious that it's a non-issue. A no brainer. Yet *technically* it's signed, it's private, she's not conducting bank business etc.... And as you can probably surmise: No one's "going to jail". No one's "getting a ticket or cuffed" blah blah blah.

While I realize this example also is not perfectly representative of a scenario where a property owner DOES INDEED care. So perhaps for THIS exact OP, it might not apply. Yes, there are certain scenarios where it ceases to be "innocuous".
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  #27  
Old 07-10-2017, 04:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Rollie View post
Okay, when I posted this thread in the first place it was just because I'm new to the sport and I wanted to see what you guys with more experience had to say. It is interesting that there is not a clear consensus. But I wasn't even going to go over there when I posted it, but all this talk got me thinking more about it. So this morning I called the business offices of the owner, and got right through to him. That surprised me, as I didn't even expect him to be there. He remembered me from when I was a kid, and that was a long time ago, so that surprised me too. He said sure, go for it. I mentioned the signs and the fishermen, and he said that the signs had nothing to do with liability. He said that he put them up because people were going in there without asking. He said that people call him all the time to go fishing in there and that he hardly ever turns anyone down if they ask, he just doesn't like people treating it like they own it, when they don't. So maybe there is a lesson to be learned here. So now I'm going to go over there and check it out. I'm glad I posted the thread. It sent me on a journey. It was a good experience, and I learned something.

Yeah it seems we enjoy a good should I or shouldnt I topic around here

Im glad he remembered you and he gave permission. Depending on particular circumstances it could have gone the other way though , so even though there are times and situations where asking for permission can unnecessarily ruin a good opportunity , there are even more times when its best to seek permission or atleast clarification. Its important for people just starting the hobby to see that taking advantage of some gray areas can have a negative effect on public perception and this hobby , not to mention the possibility of personal consequences.

When uninvolved third parties give advice to just go hunt some place anyway , we dont necessarily have all the information needed to make that judgement , we could be doing more harm than good. " We " may just go hunt the place ourselves after being sure we know the situation , but recommending someone else to do it is irresponsible. I may drive 3 miles over the speed limit sometimes on the freeway because I know I wont get pulled over for it but it would be irresponsible for me to recommend someone else do it , so the advice I give is to always obey the speed limit.

Gray areas do exist that are no harm no foul to anyone and we know that truly nobody cares but there is chance that eventually we could find out the hard way that we were wrong about something. So its just something to be cautious about.

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  #28  
Old 07-10-2017, 10:12 PM
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I'd ask the OWNER, and if he says yes, get it in written permission with a date, laminate it, and leave it in your tackle box or glove box of the car, This is from someone who was once years ago arrested for trespassing on a farm pond! they confiscated our boxes and rods, which after court several months later had been pilfered through and broken! Stay Legal!
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  #29  
Old 07-11-2017, 12:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom_in_CA View post
Since when is metal detecting "highly suspicious" ? Any more-so than fishing ? ?
I have never had the police approach me because someone reported "suspicious activity" while I was fishing. I have while metal detecting.

People know what a fishing rod is and what you do with them. Many people don't know what a metal detector is, what it does, or what you are doing. If they don't know what you are doing, it automatically becomes a suspicious activity. They just see you swinging something around and digging holes in the ground.

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  #30  
Old 07-11-2017, 12:19 PM
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If it is posted not to trespass, do not trespass. If the police show up, you can be arrested for trespassing and you will have no one to blame but your self should that happen.

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  #31  
Old 07-11-2017, 12:26 PM
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Originally Posted by BottleCapKing View post
I have never had the police approach me because someone reported "suspicious activity" while I was fishing. I have while metal detecting....
Sure. But you would also agree that if 2 different persons were on private property , one was fishing (and hence will be ignored) and the other person was md'ing (hence will more likely be "noticed"), that IN EACH PERSON'S CASE, they are BOTH still trespassing.

So it's almost as if we're in a cursed odd-ball hobby where we are held to a higher standard JUST because it's "odd". Not odd for someone to simply walk, fish, etc... Yet it sticks out as a curiosity draw when someone's swinging a geiger-counter-thingy.

This is why a lot of my hunting is done at night nowadays for manicured turf. So peaceful. So serene
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  #32  
Old 07-11-2017, 12:31 PM
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Perfect outcome Rollie! Theres just a time and a place, a guy has to have a bit of common sense and respect/propriety...Case in point: Big dumpster just down the road at a construction site, and I had a lot of trash that needed getting rid of...I could have easily made a few trips and tossed it all in without asking, unobserved, 'timed it right' etc...Or, I coulda bought some Bagsters and paid $250...

So, I asked the workers on site for permission..they said that their Boss is really mad at people filling up his dumpster by tossing in junk, so I asked for His phone number...I called and explained my situation...said I'd give him $50 if I could toss a pickup load of some bags of trash in there...The guy was really nice and said "Go for it!" Said he was just happy I asked for permission and that no money would be necessary....

...So yeah...its a matter of having a bit of common sense is all, and this takes years to develop....Even if the guy woulda said "No"... no biggie...theres all sorts of dumpsters around here...!..

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  #33  
Old 07-11-2017, 12:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom_in_CA View post
Since when is metal detecting "highly suspicious" ? Any more-so than fishing ? I find detecting to be non-suspicious, educational, wise, safe, nutritious, etc....
Originally Posted by BottleCapKing View post
I have never had the police approach me because someone reported "suspicious activity" while I was fishing. I have while metal detecting.

People know what a fishing rod is and what you do with them. Many people don't know what a metal detector is, what it does, or what you are doing. If they don't know what you are doing, it automatically becomes a suspicious activity. They just see you swinging something around and digging holes in the ground
Originally Posted by Tom_in_CA View post
Sure. But you would also agree that if 2 different persons were on private property , one was fishing (and hence will be ignored) and the other person was md'ing (hence will more likely be "noticed"), that IN EACH PERSON'S CASE, they are BOTH still trespassing.
Perception is reality, like it or not. Many people really have no idea what a detector is when they see one being used. Anything unfamiliar naturally becomes suspicious to more than a few people. I've had someone ask me if I was applying lawn chemicals while I was detecting a residential property, for heavens sake. So it's really not surprising at all that MDing is perceived differently than fishing. Sure, they are both trespassing, but the MDer will always catch a busy-body's eye faster. But make no mistake, a LEO will likely treat them both the same if he is ultimately called about either one.


Originally Posted by BottleCapKing View post
If it is posted not to trespass, do not trespass. If the police show up, you can be arrested for trespassing and you will have no one to blame but your self should that happen.
Exactly this, BottleCap. We can argue semantics and busy-body mentality for eternity. The reality is, this site was posted. If the police show up, regardless of why, both the fisherman and the MDer who don't have permission are likely SOL. All that said, just because a property is posted "no trespassing" doesn't mean I still wouldn't seek out the owner and ask, just like the OP did - if I get a "yes", the signs become irrelevant. LEO's may still show up, but the end result will be much more pleasant.

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  #34  
Old 07-11-2017, 01:18 PM
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Re.: this whole interesting psychology of innocuous vs not innocuous. Signs vs no signs. Permission vs no permission. Private vs Public : I will make a new post with a humorous story along these lines.
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  #35  
Old 07-11-2017, 03:42 PM
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I went over there this morning. I didn't find much worth keeping. Some coins, nothing old. I'm new to this though. Perhaps if I had a strategy it might have gone better. There was no one else out there. I found a lot of trash. I found some cans, lots of those metal straps that they secure stuff to pallets with. I found a Stanley screwdriver that wasn't anything of note. In fact, I threw it in my toolbox when I got home. The coins that I found were around the pond. I'm guessing fishermen. I was hoping to find some old relics of some sort, but I didn't. I'll go back again with a little better plan. An interesting thing, several of the no trespassing sign posts had smaller hand painted signs that said, "Please Don't Leave Trash". I'm agreeing at this point that "No Trespass" means no trespassing without permission. I think that I might make it a point to see if I can hunt more posted property that I come across. I wonder how many people just pass them by because they are posted and don't even try to ask?
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Old 07-11-2017, 04:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom_in_CA View post
This is why a lot of my hunting is done at night nowadays for manicured turf. So peaceful. So serene
It sure is - right up to the point the police pull up next to you and inform you that city regulations say you can't be in the park after X:00pm. Fortunately, the cops are pretty good about it since they know we aren't selling drugs or doing anything illegal. This has happened to me a few times this summer so far.

It is kind of weird that in one park in the same city, 10pm is "closing time", but in another park, the police sat in a car watching Cellrdwellr and I hunting at 2AM - probably to make sure we were not doing anything illegal. Of course, this particular park doesn't have quite the drug problem the 10PM park does.

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Old 07-11-2017, 10:38 PM
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Originally Posted by BottleCapKing View post
It sure is - right up to the point the police pull up next to you and inform you that city regulations say you can't be in the park after X:00pm. Fortunately, the cops are pretty good about it since they know we aren't selling drugs or doing anything illegal. This has happened to me a few times this summer so far.

It is kind of weird that in one park in the same city, 10pm is "closing time", but in another park, the police sat in a car watching Cellrdwellr and I hunting at 2AM - probably to make sure we were not doing anything illegal. Of course, this particular park doesn't have quite the drug problem the 10PM park does.
Bottle-cap-king: Your example of a certain city park where they enforce a x:00 pm rule, while another they don't. It's that way in my city too: While probably ALL the parks here have a "park closed at sunset" sign, yet for most of the parks, they're strictly "obligatory". And you'd be hard-pressed to ever get booted for being there.

I lived right across from one such park, and the ONLY time it was ever enforced is if any kids thought they were going to have a late night keg party. But if someone was simply walking their dog, or a couple on a romantic walk ? Nah.

Does this mean it's right , therefore, to detect if you knew for a fact it would fall into the non-issue side of things ? You be the judge . For me, I do it. But then again, I'm probably invisible. So there's no one around to gripe or notice in the first place.
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Old 07-11-2017, 11:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom_in_CA View post
Rollie, yes, each of us has his own threshold of "risk-assessment". Personally, if a little girl on the swing set gives me the go-ahead to detect a yard, I never argue with a "yes". Haha

One time I got invited to check out the yard of an old tavern, by someone who was regaling us with the history. Saying "it's ok, come with me I'll show you, blah blah". It never crossed our mind about owner vs non-owner, since, by his conversation, he seemed to be plugged in to that locale. And it was his friend or kin-folk or something.

We md'd for 1/2 hr or so. When all of the sudden, someone pulled up and started griping that we were trespassing. Our "host" jumped in and explained how he knew the brother of the cousin or something, blah blah. To which this person, of course, said that this did not constitute authority to sub-invite, blah blah. My md'ing friend and I just stood there watching the 2 of them exchange. It was of no concern to us. The only one possibly eating humble pie was the one who'd granted us permission. It was not our problem , it was his problem. We just shrugged our shoulders, excused ourselves and left. And let them to talk it out after that.

It netted us a silver dime and a wheatie as I recall, so .... I guess it was worth it , haha
ive had some random person get mad when i was detecting my own property, granted since it was mine and i lived there i basically told them that if they have a problem i can make a phone call and continued on (the person wasnt on my property)

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  #39  
Old 07-12-2017, 12:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Glennz View post
ive had some random person get mad when i was detecting my own property...
haha, really ? Well if I'm understanding the tone of some skittish md'rs: It's your obligation to please them and every last person on earth. You should stop md'ing your own property "lest you give md'ing a bad name". Shame on you
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Old 07-12-2017, 10:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Tom_in_CA View post
haha, really ? Well if I'm understanding the tone of some skittish md'rs: It's your obligation to please them and every last person on earth. You should stop md'ing your own property "lest you give md'ing a bad name". Shame on you
I know right, could have been some wannabee archeologist that sees a zinkie as an artifact lol. Worst thing ive found on the property was a blasting cap, best as a 1900 match safe with matches still in it. the poperty is now what you can really call hunted out :P

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