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  #21  
Old 06-22-2017, 09:27 AM
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Are you really trespassing at a dollar store? they are going to be inviting you to the store soon. You"re just there for the Pre-Grand Opening.
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  #22  
Old 06-22-2017, 09:29 AM
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Originally Posted by pplinker View post
number 1, 2, and 4 are corporations, i don't feel bad.. Number 3, the elderly person, in distant city, yes that sounds wrong. The people who are vandalizing and stealing stuff from the house are more wrong but it is still wrong to even metal detect. I was wrong.

I only found one wheat penny there. Next time i'm out that way i'll put it back. It might not be the same one, because i don't remember the date but i think it was in the 50's.
lol!

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  #23  
Old 06-22-2017, 01:00 PM
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This nation has multiple personality disorder concerning trespassing. About half the nation is okay with "un-documented workers" illegally coming into the country (trespassing) to do whatever they want, and the other half wants to kick them out and build a wall to keep them out. So it's no surprise that this subject of trespassing-to-metal-detect keeps popping up here on the forum, and inspiring debate. It solves nothing to argue about it really, as each detectorist will do what they decide is right. We didn't start the fire, but maybe we can let this one issue burn itself out by not throwing more gas on it.

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  #24  
Old 06-22-2017, 03:41 PM
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Originally Posted by BBsGal View post
This particular OP is clearly talking about privately owned land,...
Correct. Which is why I tongue-in-cheek indicated that he would, of course, get an "absolutely not" answer from a forum where.... even things of a much-more-casual (even public) land get a "must ask" mentality. Thus ... how much more so for private land ?

Originally Posted by BBsGal View post
...and stealing what the owner of the property does indeed own, ... ...
Ahhh, interesting characterization of the function of our hobby. Yes, it's true, we do "take" (remove, etc... or "steal" as you call it) things. Right ? The problem is that this is a slippery slope. Because then so-too are we taking, harvesting, removing, and stealing things from public land. Oh sure, probably no one cares (they don't see it that way). But technically, this action does constitute all-of-the-above (we "take" things after all).

And the slippery slope is: There is always prohibitions on harvest, take, remove, from every speck of public land too. Yet human nature sees un-seen uknown items as being in a different class. I mean, would you see a difference between a merc. dime @ the locations the OP alludes to , versus a merc. dime in someone's coin collection you saw on their coffee table ?

I get the technicality of what you're getting at (it's technically true). It's just that if we start to look at md'ing as defined as "stealing", then why stop at private property ? The same concept applies at all levels, and is forbidden. The reason no one thinks of it that way, is that the average-Joe knows the difference ... in actual effect/impact.

Originally Posted by BBsGal View post
....I doubt either of us would appreciate some stranger showing up and detecting in our flower beds. ...
Ahhh, sure, I agree. But you're painting an entirely different picture than the OP's "vacant lot" type scenarios he gave. You're envisioning something NOT abandoned (a private front yard no less).

Technically, yes, private is private. But the average joe recognizes a short-cut path across a vacant lot is a lot different than "hopping over someone fence to take a shortcut through their home's yard".
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  #25  
Old 06-22-2017, 03:47 PM
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In my city's blighted "chinatown" district, there are numerous vacant lots. Buildings burned or torn down in the 1940s, 50's and '60s. And because the area was/is so blighted, no one ever rebuilt anything. Some are still privately owned (as I found out through the assessor's office). Others became eminent domain.

And they are just tent city zones for homeless people nowadays. Trash, shopping carts, etc... Much to trashy to detect (despite being a colorful retail district back at the 1880s to 1920s).

But a friend and I devised a system where we would go in with flat shovels, and spend an hour peeling back 4 or 5" of soil, from select zones along the sidewalk. Those would be the yester-year board-&-batton front porch zones. By scraping out a mattress sized zone down 4 or 5", we get below the trash, hypodermic needles, wino-caps, etc.. And we were rewarded with some coins and tokens that way.

Technically, I suppose, I "needed permission" for that. So too do the homeless people "need permission" to pitch their tents there in skid row. I did look it up @ the assessor's office, and the owner was about 2 hr. away. Asian sounding name, no doubt descended from original settlers @ the China town days. No one ever answered a letter I sent to the property tax bill on-file. The only reason I thought to seek their say-so, was we were wanting to take a tractor and do the entire lot But no one ever answered, so we kept our stuff small and casual handwork.

That would be an example of where ....... sometimes "reality" is different than "technicality", IMHO.
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  #26  
Old 06-22-2017, 04:33 PM
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I'm a towering 6'4 240 lb bald guy with a big beard. I always ask permission by saying so your gonna let me hunt your property aren't you. They say yes than shut and lock the door!

----always ask permission folks!----


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  #27  
Old 06-22-2017, 04:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom_in_CA View post
Correct. Which is why I tongue-in-cheek indicated that he would, of course, get an "absolutely not" answer from a forum where.... even things of a much-more-casual (even public) land get a "must ask" mentality. Thus ... how much more so for private land ?

Ahhh, interesting characterization of the function of our hobby. Yes, it's true, we do "take" (remove, etc... or "steal" as you call it) things. Right ? The problem is that this is a slippery slope. Because then so-too are we taking, harvesting, removing, and stealing things from public land. Oh sure, probably no one cares (they don't see it that way). But technically, this action does constitute all-of-the-above (we "take" things after all).

And the slippery slope is: There is always prohibitions on harvest, take, remove, from every speck of public land too. Yet human nature sees un-seen uknown items as being in a different class. I mean, would you see a difference between a merc. dime @ the locations the OP alludes to , versus a merc. dime in someone's coin collection you saw on their coffee table ?

I get the technicality of what you're getting at (it's technically true). It's just that if we start to look at md'ing as defined as "stealing", then why stop at private property ? The same concept applies at all levels, and is forbidden. The reason no one thinks of it that way, is that the average-Joe knows the difference ... in actual effect/impact.

Ahhh, sure, I agree. But you're painting an entirely different picture than the OP's "vacant lot" type scenarios he gave. You're envisioning something NOT abandoned (a private front yard no less).

Technically, yes, private is private. But the average joe recognizes a short-cut path across a vacant lot is a lot different than "hopping over someone fence to take a shortcut through their home's yard".
So, let me get this right, your private property ownership rights as well as mine should be respected, but anyone else you deem unworthy of those rights no longer has them? For whatever reason you see fit?

That's kinda self serving if I may say so. If your rights to property and my rights to property protect us from infringement by others, then so do everyone else's property rights afford them the same protection.

Is it really so terrible just to either get permission or leave things alone that don't belong to you? Seriously...

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  #28  
Old 06-22-2017, 10:33 PM
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Originally Posted by BBsGal View post
... Seriously...
You're right. Legally & technically there's no getting around it: Your home is *technically* no different from an out-of-state corporate owned abandoned/neglected vacant weed-choked corner lot.

And so, if you desire to spit on the parking lot of a [privately owned] shopping center, there is technically no difference between the ability to spit there, versus to spit on the living room floor of your home.

Or if you "pick up a quarter you see on the shopping center parking lot" (aka "steal it"), so too is it no different than lifting the quarter off your bedroom nightstand. Stealing is stealing is stealing. Private is private is private.

I can not technically disagree with you. Yet somehow the average person feels that A) the mgt. co who owns the shopping center could care less if I picked up a quarter off their parking lot, and B) that property owner Co. could care less if I spit while crossing their parking lot. But.... C) You would indeed "care" if I walked into your home and took a quarter off your night-stand, and D) You would indeed care if I spit in your living room . E) a City does indeed care if you take home their park benches or harvest flowers from their park gardens. Yet oddly F) the city does not seem to care if you take (aka steal) a 1916 D merc. worth much more from the turf ??

Yes this is a slippery slope. Because while .... EVEN YOU might "step off the sidewalk" (or spit, etc...), yet .... then gee, what about other things seemingly "innocuous" ? Who's to draw the fine-line ?
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  #29  
Old 06-22-2017, 10:44 PM
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I wish there was an absolute answer. But using my wife as an example: She is utterly skittish and law-abiding. Yet she will park in a closed Bank parking lot to attend a downtown cinema late-night movie .

When I point out to her that the teensy sign at the parking lot entrance (that no one ever reads) says "customer parking only", she replies: "But the bank is closed". Does that make it "right" for her or the apparently 50 other cars who likewise parked because they knew the bank was closed ? Of course not .

And sure, I agree that md'ing is a bit more of an ... oddity than "spitting on sidewalks" or "parking your car where everyone else just did".
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  #30  
Old 06-22-2017, 10:57 PM
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Just last week I used the bathroom in a coffee shop without buying anything even though the sign said "For Customers Only". Ya, I'm an outlaw.
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  #31  
Old 06-23-2017, 09:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Scooterjim View post
Just last week I used the bathroom in a coffee shop without buying anything even though the sign said "For Customers Only". Ya, I'm an outlaw.
I must point out to you that the coffee shop was private property. So their private property ownership rights as well as mine should be respected. But you must deem them unworthy of those rights ? For whatever reason you see fit?

That's kinda self serving if I may say so. If your rights to property and my rights to property protect us from infringement by others, then so do everyone else's property rights afford them the same protection.

Is it really so terrible just to either get permission or buy a cup of coffee ? Seriously...


(I hope you see that this is tongue in cheek )
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  #32  
Old 06-23-2017, 10:06 AM
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Thats why the concept of 'trespassing' is such a confusing subject!

I read about this one guy once, he was a homeless veteran, and he decided to set up camp in this one private Forest/Hunting preserve some rich guy owned...Never asked one diddly damn for permission either!....He started out shooting deer with his bow and arrows to feed himself, then, just out of circumstance, he started amassing somewhat of a following of like minded individuals, including an alcoholic Priest of some sort..and a bum camp began....

Then, for some reason, not recognizing a good thing and staying nice and quiet, this rag tag group of bums got emboldened and started knocking over armored cars and stealing gold and such!...In an effort to justify their criminal behavior, they stated they were 'giving it to the poor'...Yeah! my @ss they did!

Well, the Land Owner of course could not tolerate these interlopers and rascally robbery poachery freeloader drunken transients, and got the Law involved! Makes complete sense! I mean, hell, understandable! Everyone has their limits! Its one thing for a single bum to camp out and shoot a deer every now and then and move on, but to have a whole mob wiping out your private woodland animals, stealing all your stuff and crapping all over the place? Full time? Untolerable!

So yeah...that one Nottingham Sheriff went in there to clear out the riff raff, as was his duty...and a massive physical and ethical debate ensued! People were killed even!

The bum guy? The leader of this trespassory rapscallionry rebel rank of rum sodden reprobatical renegades? This damn guy is now considered some kind of Folk Hero! The Sheriff and the Land Owner are made out to be the bad guys! In fact, the violent trespasser Bum guy killed both the Landowner and the Sheriff!! And did he get punished? NO! He got himself a Presidential pardon! Sort of like Bill Ayers and Bernadine Dohrn!

I will say this warning for Property owners, you better be on your toes...never let a single Bum camp out on your land for any reason! Or in your house! Are you crazy? Give them the 'Bums Rush' as soon as possible! Especially if they are relatives! I dont give a tinkers damn if they look like Errol Flynn or Kevin Costner or Sean Connery! You gotta toss them quick or you got major problems!! Here we are talking about 'No permission vacant lot penny poachers'.. well, historically speaking thats where it starts!

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  #33  
Old 06-23-2017, 10:32 AM
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  #34  
Old 06-23-2017, 10:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Tom_in_CA View post
I must point out to you that the coffee shop was private property. So their private property ownership rights as well as mine should be respected. But you must deem them unworthy of those rights ? For whatever reason you see fit?

That's kinda self serving if I may say so. If your rights to property and my rights to property protect us from infringement by others, then so do everyone else's property rights afford them the same protection.

Is it really so terrible just to either get permission or buy a cup of coffee ? Seriously...


(I hope you see that this is tongue in cheek )
There's no use... You're incorrigible!

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  #35  
Old 06-23-2017, 01:03 PM
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Originally Posted by jwp1964 View post
Done here. I knew I should have just moved along...

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Well, what can we expect when people here teach others there's no need to respect others property or ask permission.... as long as no one sees you pick your nose, did you really pick your nose is the consensus...

I gave up long ago on the whole teaching ethics thing to newbs, seems I'm of the old school and need to get with the current times as far as that goes.

At least the op is honest too!

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  #36  
Old 06-23-2017, 01:06 PM
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Originally Posted by BBsGal View post
Only one thought...
If you own anything, even though you aren't standing there watching over it, do you think anyone wanting to use/take/touch your property should have the respect to ask and receive your permission first?
+1

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  #37  
Old 06-23-2017, 01:12 PM
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Incorrigible indeed!
In before the lock

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  #38  
Old 06-23-2017, 01:53 PM
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Originally Posted by matmit View post
Incorrigible indeed!
In before the lock
but not in a bad way, in a funny way

I could almost hear that kind of mocking fake female tone the way my brother used to do it and just lost it

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  #39  
Old 06-23-2017, 02:31 PM
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[QUOTE=Tom_in_CA;2796028]I must point out to you that the coffee shop was private property. So their private property ownership rights as well as mine should be respected. But you must deem them unworthy of those rights ? For whatever reason you see fit?

Yes, But only if I have to pee real bad
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  #40  
Old 06-23-2017, 05:47 PM
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There is a whole hobby dedicated to trespassing on other people's property as well as breaking & entering abandoned buildings it's called Urban Exploration and its probably a bigger hobby than metal detecting. Can you believe those rascals will actually break into old bomb shelters, take pictures and actually STEAL rusty cans? These scoundrels need to be brought to justice!

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