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Can someone explain at exactly what point does old garbage become a relic?

Notsuredomus

Notsuredomus

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Aug 29, 2017
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Philippines
Hey Archeologists, at what point exactly does garbage become a relic?
Detectorists have to have a code of ethics. When metal detecting I always take any trash I find with me. Trash in our countries wild places is an ugly contamination of the natural beauty which people have always come to experience and enjoy. The areas in which I have detected do not allow the removal of (artifacts) from the ground. So at what point does a bunch of old garbage become an artifact? Since we are basing our laws on the arbitrary concept which claims that the difference between an artifact and trash is age, couldnt I then conclude that by leaving my garbage in the forest rather than packing it out (as Ive always done) I would not be littering but preserving history. So by leaving my trash behind I am creating a historic record for future generations of nature lovers to enjoy. Rather than forbidding the removal of any and all objects of potentially historic significants, leaving it all in the ground undiscovered and unknown to deteriorate with no plans for any archaeological dig now or in the forsee able future. Wouldn't it then be a greater asset to the historical record if we took the rusting pieces of iron with us and with a online database where we could record the location, relevant information and images where it can all be studied, cross referenced and searched for possibly important historic significance? Letting these items sit in the ground until they are nothing but a pocket of iron oxide will do the historic record absolutely no good at all. This way of thinking is not preserving history, it is ignoring it. Not just ignoring it but criminalizing the act of not ignoring it. Artifacts will never be of any use to history nor the pursuit of truth until somebody digs them up. So is it garbage or is it an artifact? either way, it should not be contaminating our National forests and parks. The wilderness experience comes from the beauty of an unspoiled nature. Man made items should be kept in man made places. The forest is not a dump. Nor is it a museum. So I say lets do the right thing, lets break the law.

So... You have heard my opinion on this subject. Now I would like to hear you'rs. Please let me know whether you agree or disagree with me and why. I am pretty open minded maybe you will change my mind.
 
I agree with you that our National forests aren't dumps. People shouldn't be littering there, but as far as no mding there...I think that has more to do with keeping them pristine instead of removing artifacts. JMO, although I know the laws are not to remove anything either, which pretty much includes trash also. Pretty sure they have crews that are allowed to "help clean" though, so :?:
 
I agree that responsible relic hunting in state/federal parks should be allowed (where holes are refilled, ect) and that maybe should require a permit simply so those who would leave holes wouldn't ruin it for everyone.

As far as the question "Can someone explain at exactly what point does old garbage become a relic?"

....maybe when someone is willing to pay money for it ? :lol:
 
I'm not an archie, but I'll take a stab at the initial question.

In my opinion, trash becomes a relic when it is no longer contemporary, that is, the item is no longer available to be purchased new/no longer manufactured and marketed. The bottle caps off your recently purchased soda bottles I consider trash, while the rusty beer can from 1969 I would consider a relic (not a valuable relic, but its existence at a certain location could prove to be historically significant).

I like your idea of a national database for finds, however, the problem that I see with that is people who enter information could enter incorrect information (intentionally or unintentionally) and really cause a problem. Unlike Wikipedia, I don't see anyway to prevent the posting of incorrect data if it is open to the general public. If that problem could be overcome, I would be all for it.
 
What's it take 30 yrs for an item to become an antique?

According to the dictionary, a relic is something that is from a past time, place, culture.

In classical Latin "remains, remnants," or reliquus "remaining, that which remains,

Another description was that which remains after decay, so I guess it would depend on the item, and how long it takes it to decay as far as TIME

But in our context... one description was this "something that has historic interest because of its age and associations with the past

So, it's trash until it has some sort of historical significance...lol


Archaeologists look for Artifacts, defined as any nonnatural feature or structure accidentally introduced into something being observed or studied

So, any trash found during an archaeological dig would be considered a relic of a society or culture. If that artifact had historical significance, it would be considered an artifact.

If I understand it correctly...lol
 
Vintage is 50 years to 100 Years old. An antique is 100 or more years old.

I am not a relic hunter so those old pieces of rusty metal are just Junk to me.

But different strokes for different folks. If like what you dig then more power to you.. Yes I have dug a few items that I have kept because they were neat and they were also old.
 
One mans junk is another mans relic.

Relics are junk from a gone era , the relatively few survivors from a time many are nostalgic about. I don't get it myself , that's why I don't hunt relics anymore except for old coins.

But I have to agree with the law and say I think national forests and parks should be off limits. Anything there has been covered and hidden by time , no longer an eyesore so the fact that its junk and don't need to be there has no relevance. Its better for those environments to be as little disturbed as possible. You are free to disagree with that , but the reason they have been made national forests and parks is to preserve them " as they are " as much as possible , even the traces of our past which are themselves a tribute to the land and what it meant to people.
 
Not all national forests are illegal to detect in... I hunt in a couple all the time, legally.


Each park, state, city will have their own laws and ordinances, and ironically I am writing an article about a program that encourages detectorists to join up on projects in national forests etc....
 
George in SC hinted closest at the legal answer. The legal answer for when a man-made object falls into the category of "cultural heritage" (ie.: "artifact") is when it's 50 yrs. old or more. That is the legal definition you would find, if you followed enough legal dots. I have had this conversation before with state and federal people here in CA. And a coastal commission bureaucrat.

Notsuredomus said:
..... The areas in which I have detected do not allow the removal of (artifacts) from the ground......
Click to expand...

Why stop there Notsuredomus ? You can no doubt also find laws/rules for the public land you're on, that forbid "harvest", "deface", and "remove" ? Or your act of digging the target *could* fall under "alter" and "deface" ? So if you want to start down the path of fretting yourself about semantics, you can probably just give up all public land detecting right now.

However, a quick look down the pages of md'ing forum show & tell sections will show you that SCORES of people are (gasp) detecting public land . How can this be ? Hence me thinks that you're over-thinking this. I mean, honestly now: When was the last time anyone ever followed you around with a calculator doing the math on the ages of targets you find ?

Just avoid obvious historic sensitive monuments, avoid archaeologist conventions, and go detecting.
 
NectarDetector said:
Not all national forests are illegal to detect in... I hunt in a couple all the time, legally.....
Click to expand...


Me too. Of course if the entity is national (fed), then ARPA would no doubt apply. That is why, ... just like you: I do not find 50+ yr. coins there. Do you ? :D

NectarDetector said:
.... ironically I am writing an article about a program that encourages detectorists to join up on projects in national forests etc....
Click to expand...

Are you talking about those couple of "help archies" park-programs that have popped up here and there ? If so, just be aware, they're probably not what most md'rs are envisioning. You have to flag each beep, and the archies come by the next day, with tweezers and brushes, and dig each beep. Quite boring.

Also they are very condescending to the md'rs they enlist to help. Ie.: Hardly a love-affair hand-holding union between the 2 sides. The ONLY type "metal detecting" they would condone, is strictly this, when you are there with them. They would bristle with anger if and when you showed them something you (gasp) found on your own.

Don't get me wrong: I would love the chance to get onto a super sensitive site. But .... it's not going to be like most md'rs would envision. To get the beep & dig it. The archies want to dig every nail (that we would pass). And then write an entire 5 pages on a single bullet shell (which we would promptly chuck in the trash pouch), etc....
 
GKL said:
.... that maybe should require a permit .....
Click to expand...


Crackerjack said:
.... I like your idea of a national database for finds.....
Click to expand...


All such "permit" or "database" ideas, to theoretically "open up off-limits lands" is going to have too many devil-in-the-details" gotchas.

ANY TIME THAT ANY ENTITY has ever dreamed up a "permit" system, it's always fraught with silly-ness. Eg.: yes but you can't dig. Or you must turn in all your finds. Or digger tool shall not exceed 3" length. Or not within 10 ft. of any tree. Or on sandy beaches only. Blah blah blah.

And worse yet, you notice that any place with any sort of permit often-time invariably just revokes it altogether years later, with an express "no". Huh ? Here's why: Because THE MERE FACT that it's something they "allow" or "permit" merely means that it's something that's perpetually on their radar. Ie.: Policy that comes up for annual review. And then sure as heck, one year someone on the B.O.D. asks "gee, do we really want all these yahoos out their digging up the parks?"

Hence much better than it is silent on the subject. Ie.: not *specifically* addressed.
 
Tom_in_CA said:
George in SC hinted closest at the legal answer. The legal answer for when a man-made object falls into the category of "cultural heritage" (ie.: "artifact") is when it's 50 yrs. old or more. That is the legal definition you would find, if you followed enough legal dots. I have had this conversation before with state and federal people here in CA. And a coastal commission bureaucrat.
.
Click to expand...

Somewhere in the legal dots it says"for the purpose of this regulation 'RELIC' is defined as" and then they have their criteria. I think the true definition of a relic is when someone calls it a relic.
Pull tabs and nails are relics when you use them to date an area. They become trash when you throw them away.
 
Tom_in_CA said:
Me too. Of course if the entity is national (fed), then ARPA would no doubt apply. That is why, ... just like you: I do not find 50+ yr. coins there. Do you ? :D



Are you talking about those couple of "help archies" park-programs that have popped up here and there ? If so, just be aware, they're probably not what most md'rs are envisioning. You have to flag each beep, and the archies come by the next day, with tweezers and brushes, and dig each beep. Quite boring.

Also they are very condescending to the md'rs they enlist to help. Ie.: Hardly a love-affair hand-holding union between the 2 sides. The ONLY type "metal detecting" they would condone, is strictly this, when you are there with them. They would bristle with anger if and when you showed them something you (gasp) found on your own.

Don't get me wrong: I would love the chance to get onto a super sensitive site. But .... it's not going to be like most md'rs would envision. To get the beep & dig it. The archies want to dig every nail (that we would pass). And then write an entire 5 pages on a single bullet shell (which we would promptly chuck in the trash pouch), etc....
Click to expand...


Never find anything over 50 yrs old, ever... heck my detector barely even works!!!

You'll get your answers when you read the article...but no, it isnt what you've described at all.
 
I love that tom has no chill, haha. The man usually has a point though
 
Crackerjack said:
I'm not an archie, but I'll take a stab at the initial question.
I like your idea of a national database for finds, however, the problem that I see with that is people who enter information could enter incorrect information (intentionally or unintentionally) and really cause a problem. Unlike Wikipedia, I don't see anyway to prevent the posting of incorrect data if it is open to the general public. If that problem could be overcome, I would be all for it.
Click to expand...

From East of the Pond
We have a National database , called the Portable Antiquities Scheme. Dotted around the country are FLOs- Find Liaison Officers- to whom responsible detectorists record finds.Look here for details, gives info on what to record, what classifies as treasure, and details of thousands of recorded finds:-

https://finds.org.uk/

Have fun!
KeithM :D
 
Sailor Return said:
From East of the Pond
We have a National database , called the Portable Antiquities Scheme. Dotted around the country are FLOs- Find Liaison Officers- to whom responsible detectorists record finds.Look here for details, gives info on what to record, what classifies as treasure, and details of thousands of recorded finds:-

https://finds.org.uk/

Have fun!
KeithM :D
Click to expand...

Keith: The British system is often heralded as some sort of win-win handholding between archies, the govt., and md'rs. Held up as a supposed example of "something the USA should consider".

But it is widely misunderstood. It is NOT some sort of "carte-blanche" to metal detect cool off -limits areas. You guys in England have SCORES of off-limit "scheduled" sites. Right ? For example: Try detecting Stonehenge and see what happens.

The only reason such a thing exists there in England, is because the laws that resources under the ground belong to the crown (oil, mineral wealth, etc...). Not so in the USA. Over here, if you discover oil on your land, you'll be rich like in the Beverly Hillbillies. Over here, if you discover a cache on farmer Bob's land, it's totally between you and farmer bob how to split it. With no govt. intrusion.

So to try to recommend such a thing here would go down hill VERY quickly. The LAST thing you want is more govt. intrusion. And no, such a system would NOT open up any land to md'ing, and merely be swatting more hornet's nests to "put you on the radar" as something to regulate or hate or .... make more rules about.

The the LESS they think of you, the better. Not the "more".
 
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