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Old 12-22-2019, 05:24 PM
TB8788 TB8788 is offline
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Default Devilís Den Preserve Weston, CT

Are you allowed to metal detect in this park? Itís not a state park but it is a preserve. I was gonna call tomorrow but if anyone has any info or has been there before please feel free to share. The website has the following info below. Iím afraid to call because maybe they will say no because they donít want you there but maybe thereís no actual law saying no?


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Old 12-22-2019, 05:32 PM
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"Please remove all trash"

That sounds like an invitation to me.

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Old 12-22-2019, 06:49 PM
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The only thing in your link, that could remotely apply, is the boiler-plate "artifact " wording. And if wanted to get all technical on how "artifact " is defined, I'll bet it's items that are over 50 yrs old.


Ok, fine then: You're only finding new coins (less than 50 yrs). Right? How good is your math? Besides, don't you need to find the ring your friend lost there last week ?

You're right: If you call for clarification, asking "Can I ?", you might become the latest victim of "No one cared till you asked " routine.

It's not an obvious sensitive historic monument, such that "artifact " is actually relevant to anything, is it ? If not, I'd just go.
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Old 12-22-2019, 08:29 PM
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The words "preserve" and "artifacts" put detecting this site in the "grey" area. Like Tom said...asking someone is just affording someone who doesn't know the correct answer to give you a "NO" just to cover themselves. If you detect there and are noticed by workers you might be just simply told to leave OR you may run the risk of other legal hassles. Tough call.....detecting in Conn. state parks is not allowed except for a few where you can detect in sand so the question is: is a "preserve" governed by the same rules as a state park? Is it the same thing?

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Old 12-22-2019, 08:32 PM
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Originally Posted by diggin4clad View post
The words "preserve" and "artifacts" put detecting this site in the "grey" area. Like Tom said...asking someone is just affording someone who doesn't know the correct answer to give you a "NO" just to cover themselves. If you detect there and are noticed by workers you might be just simply told to leave OR you may run the risk of other legal hassles. Tough call.....
Could I get arrested? Or just a ticket?
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Old 12-22-2019, 08:34 PM
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Originally Posted by TB8788 View post
Could I get arrested? Or just a ticket?
Most likely you'd be told to leave....

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Old 12-22-2019, 09:10 PM
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Originally Posted by TB8788 View post
Could I get arrested? Or just a ticket?
To answer your question, I challenge you to find any examples of "arrest " or "ticket " for anything similar to what you paint here. I will bet that you can find no examples.

If there ever IS any examples of "tickets" or arrest" for md'ng, it is invariably always someone who is violating a specific rule/law. Or defying a warning. Or someone night sneaking obvious sensitive historic monuments, etc....
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Old 12-22-2019, 10:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom_in_CA View post
To answer your question, I challenge you to find any examples of "arrest " or "ticket " for anything similar to what you paint here. I will bet that you can find no examples.

If there ever IS any examples of "tickets" or arrest" for md'ng, it is invariably always someone who is violating a specific rule/law. Or defying a warning. Or someone night sneaking obvious sensitive historic monuments, etc....
Thatís comforting lol Iím just new to this and donít want any trouble
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Old 12-22-2019, 10:22 PM
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A preserve, what kind of preserve? Animals? History? Or just trying to keep some green in the city? If itís history then Iíd say itís probably off limits like hunting Indian burial mounds. If itís an animal preserve Iíd say itís no big deal (in my opinion) if itís for nature Iíd count it like a city park.


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Old 12-22-2019, 11:30 PM
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Originally Posted by L0S3R View post
A preserve, what kind of preserve? Animals? History? Or just trying to keep some green in the city? If itís history then Iíd say itís probably off limits like hunting Indian burial mounds. If itís an animal preserve Iíd say itís no big deal (in my opinion) if itís for nature Iíd count it like a city park.


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Old 12-23-2019, 09:19 AM
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Man, they have more rules in that "preserve" than in a Russian stalag!! I'd stay the hell out of there just on principle. No collecting minerals or artifacts looks to me like they would not like to see somebody with a detector digging there. I have often used the "I lost the gold cross my grandma gave me as a child around here someplace" a lot of places but don't think I'd try it there.

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Old 12-23-2019, 11:05 AM
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Originally Posted by TB8788 View post
Thatís comforting lol Iím just new to this and donít want any trouble

Sure. That's understandable. No one "wants any trouble", eh ? Yet .... curiously .... in my challenge, you can't point to any "trouble".

This is totally fine though. No one should violate their caution-threshold. Some people won't jay-walk. And yes, that's entirely their choice, their safety factor, etc....

As my buddy and I travel around the western USA, it sometimes boggles our minds the places where ... we just *assume* that places we researched, will have been hammered already by the locals. Since some of them were "no secret to the history books". And oddly, we found a few virgin sites. All we can figure is : If/when the locals "looked long enough and hard enough", they perhaps find something where .... "someone might not like it" or "someone might object" or "I don't want any trouble".

Hence: Bring it on ! The more that people "wait for red-carpets", the more places go un-exploited for various others.
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Old 12-23-2019, 11:14 AM
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Originally Posted by L0S3R View post
A preserve, what kind of preserve? Animals? History? Or just trying to keep some green in the city? If itís history then Iíd say itís probably off limits...
I don't disagree with this. But the devil is in the details :

a) Even if the preserve WAS entirely for wildlife, natural beauty , etc... Yet : Guaranteed that the moment any-of-those locations went to make their charter, rules, mission statement, etc... (way back when it got christened as the preserve or park or whatever), then : Sure as heck they're going to borrow from the wording of other similar entities. This is very common, for example, in city charters. Eg.: Way-back-when, when cities went to go incorporate : They simply borrow from previously existing wording of other nearby already-existing cities. Why re-invent the wheel ?

That's how, for example NOLO press legal-books work: They are simply "fill-in-the-blank" contracts for consumer usage. So too does the same apply for things like preserves, forests, parks, etc..... They will often time just adopt similar wording. And so: The evil word "artifact" creeps in there . EVEN though, perhaps, the current location has UTTERLY nothing historically sensitive there (at least not on the tourist-level, although perhaps an md'r might see a cellar-hole deep in those woods).

b) To the extent that what you're saying is true: I defy you to step into ANY park in the USA (no matter how innocuous and benign or modern), and go to the powers-that-be, with the following question :

"Hi. Can I please dig & take historic artifacts from the park, for my own fun, enjoyment, and profit ?"

And I'll bet that you can't find a single city or park, in the entire USA, that says "Sure. Go ahead. Help yourself". And this preserve would be no different in their answer. Yet oddly, as we can see : There is no shortage of md'rs in the USA, who (gasp) detect old parks in their cities, and (gasp) find 51+ yr. old coins (aka historic artifacts).

How can that possibly be ? Are they all lawless miscreants ? Or have they simply failed to ask the right persons @ the right questions ?
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Old 12-23-2019, 12:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom_in_CA View post
Sure. That's understandable. No one "wants any trouble", eh ? Yet .... curiously .... in my challenge, you can't point to any "trouble".

This is totally fine though. No one should violate their caution-threshold. Some people won't jay-walk. And yes, that's entirely their choice, their safety factor, etc....

As my buddy and I travel around the western USA, it sometimes boggles our minds the places where ... we just *assume* that places we researched, will have been hammered already by the locals. Since some of them were "no secret to the history books". And oddly, we found a few virgin sites. All we can figure is : If/when the locals "looked long enough and hard enough", they perhaps find something where .... "someone might not like it" or "someone might object" or "I don't want any trouble".

Hence: Bring it on ! The more that people "wait for red-carpets", the more places go un-exploited for various others.

When you put it that way, it makes me wanna give it a shot. I think i'll do a bit more research before i attempt it. Possibly go there and scope it out first, look for spots where theres not a lot of foot traffic. As much as I wanna dive in theres also a part of me that wants to just respect the location and stay out too.
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Old 12-23-2019, 12:20 PM
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Originally Posted by TB8788 View post
..... a part of me that wants to just respect the location .....

I consider the act of metal detecting to be very "respectful". Don't you ?

But .... seriously now .... By all means: Don't violate your own personal caution level. For a very good reason in cases-like-this : Because despite any intellectual assent (like, .... to what I've written), yet if you STILL deep-down-inside remain skittish, then guess what ? It will merely come out in your persona. Your body language. Eg.: You'll be subconsciously looking over your shoulder wondering "oh no, does that person see me ?" Esp. if an authority type comes driving by, you'll instinctively stop, stare, act evasive, etc... (It's only human nature). And then guess what ? That will simply DRIVE THE ENGINE to cause the passerby to think "Gee what's that guy doing ?"

So a part of the ability to combat these grey-area-situations, is.... Ironically ... to "act like you own the place". Then, odds are ... no one notices you, or will-be-drawn to question it. Ie.: you haven't drawn attention. As if ...what's the big deal ?

Hence if someone is skittish (their own personal tastes) then sure: Probably better that they NOT "just do it". Because otherwise they'll be the FIRST to draw attention. They are the FIRST to fumble-with-words, if questioned.
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Old 12-23-2019, 02:50 PM
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Originally Posted by TB8788 View post
When you put it that way, it makes me wanna give it a shot. I think i'll do a bit more research before i attempt it. Possibly go there and scope it out first, look for spots where theres not a lot of foot traffic. As much as I wanna dive in theres also a part of me that wants to just respect the location and stay out too.
When a park worker approaches, how are you going to explain you were "just looking for modern coins and jewelry and definitely not artifacts" when you were spotted way out where "there's not a lot of foot traffic"?

Sure, they could just ask you to leave. But, do you know if there are any archaeological sites in that preserve? Do you know if they've had a problem with native artifact looters and are itching to make an example out of somebody?

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Old 12-23-2019, 03:07 PM
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Originally Posted by ToySoldier View post
.... when you were spotted way out where "there's not a lot of foot traffic"? ...
Good point. Maybe it's just my "way-out-west" thinking on this , but : Some of the places we hunt (hiking the deserts and mountains out west, to get to the old travel-stop spots, and/or west-coast versions of "cellar holes") are SO FAR BACK IN THE BOONIES that .... quite frankly ... there's no one around , to care, in the first place. We can go all day sometimes, and never see another soul.


Originally Posted by ToySoldier View post
.... do you know if there are any archaeological sites in that preserve? ...
Unfortunately, the link he gave doesn't specify that their rule (ie.: the dreaded "artifact" wording) needs-to-have an associated "site", in conjunction to the "object".

If it had used the word "site", then yes, you'd have a point. Because for a location to receive this denotation of "archaeological site", then it has to be granted that through the trinomial system :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smithsonian_trinomial

Originally Posted by ToySoldier View post
.... Do you know if they've had a problem with native artifact looters and are itching to make an example out of somebody?
You know that North American Indians didn't have refined metals. The lone-exception, to where an md'r might (gasp) find an Indian-used metal, is the copper culture areas of a certain few zones in the upper midwest. But aside from that : Detectors pose no threat to anything Indian related, in our hobby.

But it's all sort of a moot point. Because no-matter whether the "artifact" is western (over-50 yr. old post-European-contact) or Indian (pre-European), the fact still remains : It still can be deemed "Artifact".

But the reason we don't even want to MENTION "Indian" in the conversation, is that their relics, past, bones, etc.... are held to a MUCH DIFFERENT STANDARD (in actual practice). That simply brings in WAY too many politics and cultural debates. Hence .... don't even breathe those words in the same discussion as "whether or not md'ing is ok or a non-issue" in a given area.

I docent at two different museums here in CA, where there is Indian history. A whereas a discussion of a mercury or barber dime doesn't-even-raise eyebrows, yet .... HEAVEN HELP YOU if you bring up the notion of having picked up an abalone shell bead, or touched a bone you saw that came up from a gopher hole mound.
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Old 12-23-2019, 04:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom_in_CA View post

If it had used the word "site", then yes, you'd have a point. Because for a location to receive this denotation of "archaeological site"....[/url]
My point is that there could be sites identified on that property, but you wouldn't know it, and they wouldn't know what you were up to. Information on the location of designated archaeological sites isn't easy to come by. Guess why.

They'd never be able to make a case against somebody with a couple of buttons and silver coins in their pocket, but that doesn't mean you wouldn't get kicked out or (worse) deal with defending yourself from prosecution.

Originally Posted by Tom_in_CA View post
You know that North American Indians didn't have refined metals. The lone-exception, to where an md'r might (gasp) find an Indian-used metal, is the copper culture areas of a certain few zones in the upper midwest. But aside from that : Detectors pose no threat to anything Indian related, in our hobby.
I know that, and you know that. That doesn't mean people in charge of such places don't associate metal detecting with artifact looting. It would take me seconds to find a recent news article about a few idiot artifact-looters suspected to have been armed with metal detectors, even though it made no sense for what they said was being looted.

Plus, just as you pointed out, not every archaeological site is focused on native artifacts.

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Old 12-23-2019, 05:16 PM
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Originally Posted by ToySoldier View post
My point is that there could be sites identified on that property, but you wouldn't know it, and they wouldn't know what you were up to. Information on the location of designated archaeological sites isn't easy to come by. Guess why.....
Re.: the trinomial archie system of designating a site : You're right that : If you are armed with a system #, and simply go to plug it into google : You're right : A lot of times you're NOT going to come up with any "x-marks-the-spot" . Because as you hint : Those are white-glove credentialed archive material. Except, of course, when the spot is "no secret". Eg.: Obvious sensitive tourist historic monuments, battlegrounds, etc....


But let's just "cut to the chase" : To the extent that what you are saying might be true that : "... We can't be 100% certain we're not walking on top of a spot that's designated in the archie archives with their numbering system" : If the day ever-came that this remote possibility was to affect our choice of spots-to-detect, is the day we all might as well sit at home and take up needle-point. Because, like anything , we can "worry ourselves to death" with "what if's" . Yet a quick look at forum show & tells, show that oodles of us are finding cool things in public forests, beaches, deserts, etc.... Apparently they didn't think-through-the-logistics of the "what if's"?

If a spot was A) in the middle of nowhere, and B) granted one of those #'s, and C) yet is a secret to all-but-the-few-lone archies who .... 30 yrs. ago .... submitted the site to receive a #, then ..... Let's be frank : THOSE are going to be the sorts of sites that probably no-one-alive, that you'd ever happen-to-run into, is likewise going to know about it either.

I've tracked and studied several site #'s. Because we've found the archie # in conjunction with buttons or coins found. Yet when we try to reverse-engineer it, to get an "x-marks-the-spot", the trail sometimes grows cold. But there is a way to "crack" that: The repository of the libraries that hold those archie-study-applications, are housed at various designated universities in each state. And to gain access to those store rooms (rooms filled with boring file-cabinets and boxes), you merely need to have 'credentials'. And getting credentials isn't that hard. I can make an entire post about this, but won't take up space here for that.

But I'm just going into this to make a point: Whenever we have "cracked" those #'s, and hit the sites, there is NO WAY IN HECK that anyone, who would happen-chance-be passing-us-by, is or was any wiser than we were, before we cracked the nut.

Not saying to "throw caution to the wind". OF COURSE don't be snooping around sensitive things which are a no-brainer that they are known-sites to passerbys.

And not sure about other states, but most all of the trinomial #'s in CA are pre-European contact Indian related. Eg.: midden sites, or bone-sites. They get the # & their dusty folder goes in the archives, and odds are .... no one has set foot there in the last 20, 30, or 40 yrs. And aside from the singular archie who sent in the application, I'll bet you'd be hard-pressed to find anyone else on earth that even knows about it. Barring, as I say, noted obvious sensitive monuments (obvious structures, battle-sites, ghost-towns, etc....)
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Old 12-23-2019, 05:16 PM
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Originally Posted by ToySoldier View post
.... a case against somebody .... ...
Originally Posted by ToySoldier View post
.... defending yourself from prosecution. ...
There's the "shark attack" buzz-words again : "Case", "prosecution", etc.... Conjuring up images of arrests and tickets for detecting. Eh ? It seems to imply that the md'r was doing something wrong in this case. If that's a true-given-premise, then by all-means stay home. But I'm not so sure that needs to be a given-premise.

If there is any cases of someone in a nature preserve (with no specific rule, and not a historic site) who sincerely unknowingly wandered onto a archie trinomial # site, and as such, then became afoul of the "artifact" language (despite no marked sites, and no specific rule) yet was "prosecuted", then .... Let's please see the links. I doubt that any are forthcoming.

That's not to say that someone can't paint enough "connect-the-dots" *potentials* of "fears we should all be concerned about". And by following-enough-dots, so-too can I paint a picture where someone detecting the city sand-box could likewise be "prosecuted". But at a certain point ... sheesk .... can't we all agree that it can begin to get a little silly ?
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