Scram / Boot = constitutes "law" from then on out ?

nostalgia083 · Dec 31, 2019

ToySoldier said:
Except, metal detecting often fall into--at a minimum--a grey area about digging or damaging vegetation. The people in charge ARE given the authority to make judgement calls. Perhaps the people running that park don't feel that somebody popping coins with a screwdriver is in violation, but somebody dragging a shovel around a park with a lot of underground irrigation and drainage systems is in violation.

In most places it wouldn't take anything more than a few keystrokes and updated webpage to put something in writing. Arguing on the spot about the Constitution and how much we pay in taxes isn't going to go anywhere. Refuse to leave? No cop will take your side over any park employee making a judgement call.

We want to project a positive, friendly image of metal detecting. So, we need to play nice, and then decide to follow up or not with somebody that has some authority. Or, review their rules again, and then decide to go back or not.

If it's not against the law and a peace officer or someone else in government tries stopping you from enjoying your freedom to do whatever it is you're doing, that is unlawful and would be in fact, illegal for them to stop you because they have just violated your rights protected by the supreme law that is above all other laws. If you bow to tyranny, it'll keep going on and on.

If it's not metal detecting, it'll be something else. No one has any right, ever to violate your rights for any reason. I'd happily refer them to the 5th Amendment. "nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation."

nostalgia083 · Dec 31, 2019

Tom_in_CA said:
Toy-soldier answers this beautifully.

This isn't the right "hill to die on". To stand their defiantly claiming constitutional rights, blah blah. Doesn't matter whether your right or wrong legally (although I do agree that we're not doing anything illegal). Instead, the bigger issue is: What will produce the better end-results: To defy them and dispute it ? Or to give lip service, and let it blow over ? Odds are: Most all of these are flukes. So just leave it at that. Give it a rest, and come back later when said-singular lookie-lou isn't there.

Does the Constitution not matter? I'm not butt kissing someone set on violating my rights. Cause look, a bully is a bully. Whether it's bullying in school or by those sworn to uphold the Constitution, bullying is never ok. If I should ever have such an encounter, I'll make a complaint and if it's serious enough, I'll sue.

Tom_in_CA · Dec 31, 2019

nostalgia083 said:
If it's not against the law and ...

Aaahhh, but here is where the devil is in the details. They can certainly SAY "It's against the law". All they have to do is cite "alter and deface". Or "harvest and remove". Or Lost & found laws. Or cultural heritage, etc..... And then what will you do ? Get in a p*ssing match over whether-or-not those apply ?

Better to just give lip service, and come back after the matter is forgotten about. As the post shows: Most of these are flukes, and "best left that way". If you choose to fight these fluke situations, you might find that all-you've-done is swat hornet's nests, opened cans-of-worms, and simply bring about your own fears, once it's all over with.

So it's all about: What brings out the best results in the end ? Not "Am I technically right or not".

ToySoldier · Dec 31, 2019

nostalgia083 said:
If it's not against the law and a peace officer or someone else in government tries stopping you from enjoying your freedom to do whatever it is you're doing, that is unlawful and would be in fact, illegal for them to stop you because they have just violated your rights protected by the supreme law that is above all other laws. If you bow to tyranny, it'll keep going on and on.

If it's not metal detecting, it'll be something else. No one has any right, ever to violate your rights for any reason. I'd happily refer them to the 5th Amendment. "nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation."

You've got the constitutional part right, but are forgetting the "representative democracy" part. We elect people who manage public resources (or hire other people to do so) for us. That includes restricting what can be done on public property. Security procedures, rules and permits of use, etc...

So, for the conversation at hand, some cities have actual ordinances (laws) passed that limit or ban metal detecting either directly or indirectly. In other places they simply make it part of their park rules dreamed up by the people elected (or hired by an elected official) to manage them.

If we don't like how they are being managed, then we can get those laws or rules changed or the officials replaced. Unfortunately, the public isn't all that concerned about us and we don't have much of a lobby at the statehouse or even mayors office. We're not getting anybody run out of office anytime soon.

Martin_V3i · Dec 31, 2019

Tom_in_CA said:
Aaahhh, but here is where the devil is in the details. They can certainly SAY "It's against the law". All they have to do is cite "alter and deface". Or "harvest and remove". Or Lost & found laws. Or cultural heritage, etc..... And then what will you do ? Get in a p*ssing match over whether-or-not those apply ?

Better to just give lip service, and come back after the matter is forgotten about. As the post shows: Most of these are flukes, and "best left that way". If you choose to fight these fluke situations, you might find that all-you've-done is swat hornet's nests, opened cans-of-worms, and simply bring about your own fears, once it's all over with.

So it's all about: What brings out the best results in the end ? Not "Am I technically right or not".

That is a great post Tom. Factual and realistic.

Scram / Boot = constitutes "law" from then on out ?

nostalgia083

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nostalgia083

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Tom_in_CA

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ToySoldier

Martin_V3i

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