Big Boys Hobbies

Help! New AT Pro 5X8 Coil Ghosting Targets

OleSarge

OleSarge

Elite Member
Joined
Feb 19, 2013
Messages
1,698
Location
Western Washington
Second day out with my new AT Pro 5X8 coil and I'm finding as many audible ghosts as VDI targets. Is it normal for the AT Gold/Pro 5X8 DD coil to give audible alarms for a target but no VDI or depth readings on the panel. I think it has to do with deep, possibly iron or mixed metal targets which the coil either can't quite reach or discriminate what it is..but is it something I have to live with:feedback:

AT Pro/GPP/Fiskars Diggers/BH Outback/CT hand held
 
OleSarge said:
Second day out with my new AT Pro 5X8 coil and I'm finding as many audible ghosts as VDI targets. Is it normal for the AT Gold/Pro 5X8 DD coil to give audible alarms for a target but no VDI or depth readings on the panel. I think it has to do with deep, possibly iron or mixed metal targets which the coil either can't quite reach or discriminate what it is..but is it something I have to live with:feedback:

AT Pro/GPP/Fiskars Diggers/BH Outback/CT hand held
Click to expand...

Sarge, granted I'm a newbie to the ATP, but I've been using the 5x8 exclusively. I find that it's a very sensitive coil and will pick up very small targets as well as being very sensitive to iron and EMI. Testing the two coils in my front yard (where the utilities run under the ground) I found the 5x8 is more sensitive than the stock coil and required dropping the sensitivity even farther to decrease the falsing over how much I had to decrease with the stock coil.
Are the ghost signals you're experiencing repeatable or do they just randomly occur? If they're random, I'd say it's picking up EMI or iron. Does decreasing the sensitivity seem to get rid of the ghost signals? If they're repeatable, then I'd say it's a very small or deep target. However, I seem to get VDI readings on most if not all the targets I sweep, but don't have any EMI at my typical hunting grounds.
Sorry if my answer/questions are a bit disjointed.
FWIW. :cool:
 
BentRod said:
Sarge, granted I'm a newbie to the ATP, but I've been using the 5x8 exclusively. I find that it's a very sensitive coil and will pick up very small targets as well as being very sensitive to iron and EMI. Testing the two coils in my front yard (where the utilities run under the ground) I found the 5x8 is more sensitive than the stock coil and required dropping the sensitivity even farther to decrease the falsing over how much I had to decrease with the stock coil.
Are the ghost signals you're experiencing repeatable or do they just randomly occur? If they're random, I'd say it's picking up EMI or iron. Does decreasing the sensitivity seem to get rid of the ghost signals? If they're repeatable, then I'd say it's a very small or deep target. However, I seem to get VDI readings on most if not all the targets I sweep, but don't have any EMI at my typical hunting grounds.
Sorry if my answer/questions are a bit disjointed.
FWIW. :cool:
Click to expand...

Bent, you come through as perfectly clear as a problem stemming from ghosts would allow. Yes, the audio signals are repeatable and would be diggable targets if I knew what/how deep they are. I get some mixed iron tone sometime but not always. I have tried digging a couple of the ghosts and believe they are irrigation system valves, probably brass, on possible iron or steel pipe. They were at least 8 or 10" deep and neither was able to be exposed enough to make certain what they were. I haven't changed either the basic settings in the ProZero mode and have stayed at 2 bars down sensitivity. With luck I'll have some time tomorrow and adjust the sensitivity settings lower. What puzzles me though is that the signals are repeatable ONLY in the ProZero mode and totally absent in any other mode...maybe...literally...Ghosts, I'll keep you posted regarding the sensitivity settings..Oh yea, on some of the ghosts I can get a signal with the pin pointer, but they're just too deep to dig.

AT Pro/GPP/Fiskars Diggers/BH Outback/CT hand held
 
Payloadjim said:
Not sure...... but check this out for help also since you have an AT Pro. Scroll down and check them all out. Good Luck!

http://www.garrett.com/hobbysite/hbby_at_pro_videos.aspx
Click to expand...

Thanks for the link Payload. Anything, may it be audio, video or literature is helpful in a hobby like metal detecting. I believe these videos are a little vintage because they are extolling the virtues of the 4.5 sniper coil and a couple of concentrics and, from what I understand, the 5X8 has just about replaced the 4.5 for use with the AT Pro. These videos presume you are listening to tones, which I do, instead of watching the control panel VDI's, which I do also. They are a great help and I do appreciate it. I lived in Flagstaff during the 1950's and hope your weather is good enough to allow at least nominal metal detecting.

AT Pro/GPP/Fiskars Diggers/BH Outback/CT hand held
 
Hey sarge ive also came across these ghosts signals with my Atgold and 5x8 coil. Mine were repeatable, and did not show on my vdi. So I tested this by finding a deeper target and turning my sens all way down. Sure enough the atgold will detect without displaying a vdi signal. So after this test I dig all of them repeatable ghost signals.
 
Kickindirt said:
Hey sarge ive also came across these ghosts signals with my Atgold and 5x8 coil. Mine were repeatable, and did not show on my vdi. So I tested this by finding a deeper target and turning my sens all way down. Sure enough the atgold will detect without displaying a vdi signal. So after this test I dig all of them repeatable ghost signals.
Click to expand...

Mucho Gracious Kickindirt. Have you dug enough of them to average out what may be causing them. E.g, more slaw than clad or more clad than tabs, deeper than, say, the 8 1/2X11 coil would normally reach...Personally, I kind of fnd them interesting. Sort of like "Would you like eggs in your **** or would you like beer with your ****? A little mystery never hurt anyone but if I'm in a area with good targets I would rather dig them than ghost tabs...but hopefully, since you use a AT Gold, these ghost signals are honkin' huge gold rings:lol:

AT Pro/GPP/Fiskars Diggers/BH Outback/CT hand held
 
AT Pro Instructional video I was just watching at around 8:50, the narrator says, "It's important to understand, that the AT Pro's detection depth can exceed target ID depth. In other words, you will sometimes hear faint, deeper targets that do not provide any target ID."

Hope this helps,

Papa
 
Im 1 for 2 with these ghost signals. 1 I was blocked by a huge tree root. The second one I was running my machine sensitivity 4 bars from full, so I cranked up to full and then was getting a dime signal. Ended up pulling out a tiny silver and turquoise womens ring at about 8-9 inches! Swweeet!
 
OleSarge said:
Is it normal for the AT Gold/Pro 5X8 DD coil to give audible alarms for a target but no VDI or depth readings on the panel.
Audio, but no VDI readings?
Click to expand...

"Audible alarms for a target, but no VDI"...Is machine set up correctly? EMI issues and/or falsing issues? Why do you think coil and not some other issue(s)? How does the stock coil respond?
 
Sarge, if they're repeatable, I'm guessing they're not EMI. If it's not a problematic coil, then I'll say either very deep targets or very small targets near the surface. I've had some tiny items that were laying under the surface give me some iffy signals. I'd dig a plug only to have the signal disappear altogether. I found that the thickness of the plug when flipped was heavy enough to mask the small item. Can't remember if the items gave VDI or not, but they were a pain. If you're still getting a signal in the hole after the plug is flipped, then I'm going to guess deeper target, but again, hard to say. I've found that many times a signal will get better on a deep target after the plug is pulled. If it doesn't I really question the quality of the target. I hunted with a member yesterday who has an AT Pro and and eTrac. He brought the eTrac out for a bit and I was able to detect very small targets that the eTrac (stock coil) wouldn't even with the threshold adjustment. Case in point: He ran across a deep coin signal with the eTrac. I ran the 5x8 ATP over it and was also reading deep coin, but there was an identical signal about 10" to the side. I thought for sure there were two coins side by side, but the eTrac only picked up the one. He dug the signal that the eTrac showed and it turned out to be a Lincoln about 5" down. I then dug the other signal and it turned out to be a little aluminum piece off the aluminum twist off bottle caps. It was one of those little tabs that breaks off when the cap is first twisted off. It was about 2" down. Again, identical signal to the penny and the eTrac wouldn't even pick it up. FWIW.
 
Firstring said:
"Audible alarms for a target, but no VDI"...Is machine set up correctly? EMI issues and/or falsing issues? Why do you think coil and not some other issue(s)? How does the stock coil respond?
Click to expand...

Firstring, I've used the AT Pro for almost a year now with the stock 8.5X11 coil and, although there's a lot more chatter, it always provides a VDI with the audible tone. The 5X8 coil was new from the box and has only been used two times now. I may be behind a learning curve to familiarize myself with the 5X8 coil, but it seems as though it is trading the quicker response and broader search field of the stock coil for a tighter target area and more precise pin pointing of shallower targets on the fly. What truely bugs me about this is it is not consistant. Some targets will ghost with audio only, a VDI will appear for a instant and then disappear not to be repeated regardless of what I do. Papaharley03 quotes a AT Pro training video which says this is to be expected, and perhaps it is, but none the less, very bothersome. Granted, if elimination of chatter in cluttered areas and more exact definition of multiple targets in a clutter is the primary reason people prefer the 5X8 over the 8.5X11, their expectations will not go wanting because this it does, and does it well. I sincerely hope it is a peculiarity of the coil and not a bad coil. Sending the thing back to Garrett is not in my metal detecting plans for the coming weeks. Thanks to every one for the input and help...it is appreciated!

AT Pro/GPP/Fiskars Diggers/BH outback/CT hand held
 
BentRod said:
Sarge, if they're repeatable, I'm guessing they're not EMI. If it's not a problematic coil, then I'll say either very deep targets or very small targets near the surface. I've had some tiny items that were laying under the surface give me some iffy signals. I'd dig a plug only to have the signal disappear altogether. I found that the thickness of the plug when flipped was heavy enough to mask the small item. Can't remember if the items gave VDI or not, but they were a pain. If you're still getting a signal in the hole after the plug is flipped, then I'm going to guess deeper target, but again, hard to say. I've found that many times a signal will get better on a deep target after the plug is pulled. If it doesn't I really question the quality of the target. I hunted with a member yesterday who has an AT Pro and and eTrac. He brought the eTrac out for a bit and I was able to detect very small targets that the eTrac (stock coil) wouldn't even with the threshold adjustment. Case in point: He ran across a deep coin signal with the eTrac. I ran the 5x8 ATP over it and was also reading deep coin, but there was an identical signal about 10" to the side. I thought for sure there were two coins side by side, but the eTrac only picked up the one. He dug the signal that the eTrac showed and it turned out to be a Lincoln about 5" down. I then dug the other signal and it turned out to be a little aluminum piece off the aluminum twist off bottle caps. It was one of those little tabs that breaks off when the cap is first twisted off. It was about 2" down. Again, identical signal to the penny and the eTrac wouldn't even pick it up. FWIW.
Click to expand...

Bent, I could close my eyes and nearly write a word for word duplicate of your post from my own experience so far with the 5X8 coil. I found the little aluminum ring atop and slightly beside a zinc penny and got a 80/81/72/75 cycling VDI and dug the little ring thinking the 72/75 was a ghost signal of the aluminum ring. Thanks to another wave and a observant ProPointer, the penny was recovered also. I imagine the GB of Issaquah is about the same as ours here in Tacoma (92/93) but 'm really questioning exactly what else our soil is contaminated with besides scrap metals and natural ocurring minerals. I have found some ghosting in areas where I can take a handful of dirt removed from a hole where the target disappeared as soon as dug, and the dirt itself caused the ProPointer to signal a target. Another thing I've found the 8X5 coil can't deal with is the tiny steel threads, almost like the old steel scrubbing pads, I've found in several different locations. I'm going to keep experimenting with the 5X8 coil, do some air tests and I'll keep you posted.

AT Pro/GPP/Fiskars Diggers/BH Outback/CT hand held
 
Kickindirt said:
Im 1 for 2 with these ghost signals. 1 I was blocked by a huge tree root. The second one I was running my machine sensitivity 4 bars from full, so I cranked up to full and then was getting a dime signal. Ended up pulling out a tiny silver and turquoise womens ring at about 8-9 inches! Swweeet!
Click to expand...

Thanks Kickindirt. Tomorrow I'm going back to a park I've hunted recently, and is well hammered by other MDers, so there should be lots of silence between targets. I'll do a factory reset of the detector and then follow your recommendation on resetting my sensitivity settings. What do you think about putting down some test targets, at different depths, and then rechecking for ghosting of known targets at known depths and then adjusting my sensitivity accordingly?

AT Pro/GPP/Fiskars Diggers/BH Outback/CT hand held
 
Grumpysrb said:
You can get deep targets that give no VDI number. But, usually give a 10+ on the depth. Atleast the deep ones I have found did.
Click to expand...

No Sir, the ghosts gives only a audio and no other VDI information including target ID depth or intensity bar readings. The audio is a clear mid range tone which should represent a perfect and repeatable target. As I said, if a VDI does appear at all its only instantaneous and immediately disappears and I can't get it to repeat regardless of how many directions I wave the target from. The audio is a slamming signal and under any other circumstances should be a perfectly diggable target. I did dig a couple of the ghosts and one was a LARGE irrigation valve about 8 inches deep, another was so deep (my GPP got a constant audio about 10 inches) but I could never reach a target. I dug one ghost which was a ball of tiny, apparently stainless steel wires about 5 or 6 inches deep, and the other was a target I never found because it disappeared as soon as I dug to where the target should have been. Instead, every handful of dirt I pulled from the hole give a audible on the GPP....I didn't have a magnet but could find no metal, of any sort or size, mixed with the dirt. Maybe this is a case of hot dirt, rather than hot rocks, and my next purchase at the Dollar Store is for a pack of small magnets.

AT Pro/GPP/Fiskars Diggers/BH Outback/CT hand Held
 
OleSarge said:
Thanks Kickindirt. Tomorrow I'm going back to a park I've hunted recently, and is well hammered by other MDers, so there should be lots of silence between targets. I'll do a factory reset of the detector and then follow your recommendation on resetting my sensitivity settings. What do you think about putting down some test targets, at different depths, and then rechecking for ghosting of known targets at known depths and then adjusting my sensitivity accordingly?

AT Pro/GPP/Fiskars Diggers/BH Outback/CT hand held
Click to expand...

I use my iron audio to tell me where to run my sensitivity and how fast i can swing. In heavy trash my machine runs smooth with sensitivity 4-5 bars from full. If trash not to heavy ill bump up a bar or 2. If I come across a iffy signal I just max it out to check em. I would use the park as a test garden. When digging ghost signals if u dig down 4-6 inches check and see if u get a vdi reading. If ur not prob just big iron close by in the ground, possibly under ground utilities. I have experienced under ground utilities that give emi too.
 
You mentioned the "ghost" signals only being audible in Pro mode. Please take a look at this scan of an AT Pro manual page in this thread:

http://metaldetectingforum.com/showthread.php?t=176937

Note where it says that Pro mode is additionally sensitive, and that it is possible to hear deep targets that do not register a target ID.

My experience has been that the 5x8 coil does not quite get the depth of the 9x11 and is very useful in a first or second pass over an area, and to clear out trashy areas, but then you need to go over the area again with the stock coil to find out about those deeper targets. Since the 5x8 doesn't go as deep, you will get more signals where the AT Pro can't tell the target ID.

Also, I've found that the 5x8 is more sensitive to smaller shallow targets such as teeny pins and screws, bird shot and BB's, and other things that are tough if not impossible to find in the hole. A magnet can help with some of these, patience is needed for the rest. ;) If it is making you nuts, reducing senstivity will make a difference as well.
 
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