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  #1  
Old 12-05-2019, 07:50 PM
Splix76 Splix76 is offline
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Default Utah, - Private Land Posting Requirements

I have read the requirements for posting private land as no trespassing in Utah. It says that on all 4 corners, at streams, roads, gates, etc... all must be posted.

If land is not posted, and is not being actively farmed, I believe I am fine to detect on it without seeking permission.

Has anyone dealt with this before? I have a plot of land in the middle of no-where Utah where I suspect historical events took place I want to detect. There are no gates, no signs, no other indicators of ownership or access restriction.

I am looking to take the pulse of the community on this. I am certainly not looking to tresspass and I would not enter if signs were posted, I would leave if asked immediately, but this land appears to be owned but not cared for.

Not looking for a lecture here, just wondering what the general consensus is in situations like this.

Thanks!

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Old 12-05-2019, 08:26 PM
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Clearly, it's not trespassing if that's the law and the situation. What you really seem to be asking is whether the right to walk across somebody's land also includes implicit permission to find items of value and remove them. Some will argue it does, some will argue it does not. I believe they are two different things.

Edited to add: It does seem people in the east tend to recognize that if a piece of land isn't public, then it is owned by somebody. In Kentucky you'd be a fool to wander onto somebody's non-posted undeveloped land (legal) and start digging. Out west there seems to be a different attitude given the huge tracts of undeveloped and untended land.

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  #3  
Old 12-06-2019, 08:58 AM
FliesOnly FliesOnly is offline
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I'm in agreement with ToySoldier on this one. There's a difference between walking/riding across someone’s private property that is not posted, and removing objects from someone’s private property that is not posted.
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  #4  
Old 12-06-2019, 09:22 AM
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I think the posting requirements just mean the trespasser can be charged with criminal trespass. If it's not posted you are still trespassing but it's a civil trespass, it's not criminal until you have been told not to trespass.
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Old 12-06-2019, 09:49 AM
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You will get a lecture from Tom in Ca.

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Old 12-06-2019, 10:30 AM
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Originally Posted by kingman mikey View post
You will get a lecture from Tom in Ca.
haha

Originally Posted by Splix76 View post
.....I am looking to take the pulse of the community on this....
splix76 , you are asking this question on a forum where some people think you need permission to hunt public park sandboxes. So .... go figure you're going to get "dire-sounding answers" for anything that doesn't have a red-neon banner saying "md'ing welcome here".

I notice that some people have answered (correctly IMHO) that simply being there is not an issue. Ie.: "middle of nowhere" and "not posted" and "... therefore can't be in any legal trouble" (nor is anyone around to care, in the first place, eh ?).

HOWEVER, they add that : MD'ing is in a different class though. Because it involves "digging" (toy-soldier) and "removing objects" (flies-only).

All I can say to this logic is : If THAT'S the way we define md'ing, as destruction/alteration (digging) and stealing (removing objects), then : We are all in an evil hobby, for even on public land. Ie.: public land ALSO has rules against destruction and stealing. So I'll tell ya what : Let's all just give up detecting anywhere. After all, it's inherently evil. Right ?

Obviously I'm speaking tongue in cheek, to point out that NONE OF US thinks of md'ing in those terms (even if that is technically true). Because we instinctively know that no one cares or knows about the coin in the ground Contrast to if that SAME coin had been on someone's bed-side night-stand, we would KNOW the difference.

This isn't to debate the difference between public land vs your situation. It's only to question this definition, that some float, for the very-nature of md'ing. If you consider it stealing, fine then, stay home (from everywhere). But if you consider it benign, harmless, innocuous, then .... I would treat it no different than the act of simply walking there. It all depends on how you define your hobby.
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Old 12-06-2019, 12:09 PM
Splix76 Splix76 is offline
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This is why I asked, I had not considered the facts properly. I am not simply on the land, I am removing objects and need permission.

I do know who the owner is, and have an address, but I can't reach him on any phone number so far. I may have to write an old fashioned snail mail letter to request permission.

Thanks guys. It's clear to me that passing over land to state owned land is fine, but detecting on private land requires permission in all cases.

I really appreciate the feedback, thanks again.

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  #8  
Old 12-06-2019, 12:11 PM
Splix76 Splix76 is offline
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Originally Posted by Tom_in_CA View post
haha



splix76 , you are asking this question on a forum where some people think you need permission to hunt public park sandboxes. So .... go figure you're going to get "dire-sounding answers" for anything that doesn't have a red-neon banner saying "md'ing welcome here".

I notice that some people have answered (correctly IMHO) that simply being there is not an issue. Ie.: "middle of nowhere" and "not posted" and "... therefore can't be in any legal trouble" (nor is anyone around to care, in the first place, eh ?).

HOWEVER, they add that : MD'ing is in a different class though. Because it involves "digging" (toy-soldier) and "removing objects" (flies-only).

All I can say to this logic is : If THAT'S the way we define md'ing, as destruction/alteration (digging) and stealing (removing objects), then : We are all in an evil hobby, for even on public land. Ie.: public land ALSO has rules against destruction and stealing. So I'll tell ya what : Let's all just give up detecting anywhere. After all, it's inherently evil. Right ?

Obviously I'm speaking tongue in cheek, to point out that NONE OF US thinks of md'ing in those terms (even if that is technically true). Because we instinctively know that no one cares or knows about the coin in the ground Contrast to if that SAME coin had been on someone's bed-side night-stand, we would KNOW the difference.

This isn't to debate the difference between public land vs your situation. It's only to question this definition, that some float, for the very-nature of md'ing. If you consider it stealing, fine then, stay home (from everywhere). But if you consider it benign, harmless, innocuous, then .... I would treat it no different than the act of simply walking there. It all depends on how you define your hobby.

I am torn on this reply, I agree with you on most of it. However, based on the history in the area I could find something much cooler than a coin and having permission would free me from feeling guilt about removing something in a gray area.

If it was just a parking strip with a 1920 coin, no big deal. If I find an old 6 shooter or other sweet piece of history, that changes things up for me.

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  #9  
Old 12-06-2019, 12:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom_in_CA View post
HOWEVER, they add that : MD'ing is in a different class though.
We didn’t really put it into some sort of “different class”. We merely, and quite correctly, pointed out that walking across someone property is not the same as metal detecting on someone’s property.
You always try to make it seem as if “we’re” portraying metal detecting as some sort of nefarious activity.


Originally Posted by Tom_in_CA View post
Because it involves "digging" (toy-soldier) and "removing objects" (flies-only).
Both of which are true.



Originally Posted by Tom_in_CA View post
This isn't to debate the difference between public land vs your situation. It's only to question this definition, that some float, for the very-nature of md'ing.
No one…absolutely no one floats that definition.


Originally Posted by Tom_in_CA View post
If you consider it stealing, fine then, stay home (from everywhere).
In the situation he described, it would be stealing. He knows that it’s private property, so he cannot later claim that he was unaware he was taking stuff off of someone else property.


Originally Posted by Tom_in_CA View post
But if you consider it benign, harmless, innocuous, then .... I would treat it no different than the act of simply walking there.
Oh the irony. I recall that in anther thread (where the guys got “caught” stealing historical artifacts in England) how you and others lamented about how great it is that in this Country you own what is buried on your land. And now, in this thread, you’re telling some new guy to go ahead and detect on someone else’s private property and to keep what he finds.



Originally Posted by Tom_in_CA View post
It all depends on how you define your hobby.
No…it all depends on how the law defines your hobby.
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  #10  
Old 12-06-2019, 12:39 PM
Splix76 Splix76 is offline
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I didn't mean to create a hot button discussion here, I just wanted other insight to ensure I was considering aspects I may have overlooked prior.

I did find input that added clarity, so thanks guys. I would hate to see this digress into a flame or bash fest, so with the data I was after in hand, I thank you all again for the feedback and advice.

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Old 12-06-2019, 02:04 PM
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Relax, Splix. These type of queries always raise differences of opinions, and just as many replies. They'll burn their candles down to a nub, and let the thread die in a short while. After all, most of us are MD'rs, and as such, can't run the two miles it might require for a long-winded discussion.

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Old 12-06-2019, 02:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Splix76 View post
I didn't mean to create a hot button discussion here, I just wanted other insight to ensure I was considering aspects I may have overlooked prior.

I did find input that added clarity, so thanks guys. I would hate to see this digress into a flame or bash fest, so with the data I was after in hand, I thank you all again for the feedback and advice.
No worries..."permission" comes up pretty often here and almost always goes in this direction. Of course, I'm one of the main reasons it goes in this direction, but what can I say...I am who I am.
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Old 12-06-2019, 03:07 PM
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Originally Posted by GTS225 View post
Relax, Splix. These type of queries always raise differences of opinions, and just as many replies. They'll burn their candles down to a nub, and let the thread die in a short while.
I'll never let this die!!!


Originally Posted by GTS225 View post
After all, most of us are MD'rs, and as such, can't run the two miles it might require for a long-winded discussion.
Amateur endurance mountain bike/gravel road racer here...did a 237 mile mtn bike race last yer in da U.P. eh...was 27 hours of almost non-stop racing from Copper Harbor to Marquette (only a handful of stops for food and water). Also raced 211 miles across the lower Peninsula from Au Gres (along Lake Huron) to Ludington (along Lake Michigan)...17 hours. Plus another three or four 100 mile races thrown in there for good measure, including Leadville Colorado.
Going to Iceland this summer for a 107 mile race around an active volcano.

And yet, metal detecting still wears me out...go figure.
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Old 12-06-2019, 03:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Splix76 View post
..... I am removing objects and need permission.

.....
Ok, then let's simply go with that definition of md'ing. ok ? After all, it's true that we "remove things" (aka "steal").

Then with that definition in mind, then the next time you detect public land, the proper question is not "Hi, can I go metal detecting here?". The proper question is: "Hi, can I remove and steal things from the park ?"

After all, this is the definition, so ... let's not mince words. Eh ?
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Old 12-06-2019, 03:22 PM
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Originally Posted by FliesOnly View post
.... You always try to make it seem as if “we’re” portraying metal detecting as some sort of nefarious activity.....
Ha, ME ? I try to do this ? Heck, I'm the one replying to the OTHERS that put md'ing in this class of definition. I am the one painting it as BENIGN and NOT "theft". It is those I'm responding to , who have painted us with a brush of damage and theft. Not me.


Originally Posted by FliesOnly View post
..... No one…absolutely no one floats that definition.....
Except you, in post #3 here, and multiple other thread's posts.


Originally Posted by FliesOnly View post
..... He knows that it’s private property,...
This is not about public vs private property. We already know it's ok for him to walk there (is the consensus based on his premises). Thus this is only about the nature of the ACTIVITY conducted. Not about the status of the land. Ie.: how do we define md'ing ?

And THEN we can answer the question. For example: If he had asked "Can I whistle dixie while walking there ?", people would have said "yes". Why ? Because the inherent definition of whistling is not evil, dangerous, harmful, etc... Ok, then .... what is the definition of md'ing ? And you and I disagree here. I say "equally as harmless" , but in your definition, it's : Stealing. So I'm simply saying : Why aren't you taking that definition out for a test drive ?


Originally Posted by FliesOnly View post
..... No…it all depends on how the law defines your hobby...
does the law define our hobby as "stealing" and "damage" ? If so, then everything you're saying does indeed logically follow. In fact, don't "mince words". Use those synonyms next time you're standing in a city-hall desk asking permission.

And .... I'm not understanding how those UK guys has a bearing on this. I think they broke a very plain-to-see *specific* law , right ? And.... I don't disagree that .... if you stood on one foot and squinted real hard, that .... so too will you find someone to say "md'ing is stealing", so even a 1958 wheatie is "stealing" . I fully understand this is the technical explanation/definition.

So .... let's all start applying this. And now .... if you'll excuse me .... I'm going to take up needlepoint as my hobby from now on. I've suddenly realized how horrible md'ing is
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Old 12-06-2019, 03:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Splix76 View post
I didn't mean to create a hot button discussion here, ....
No problem . I have high respects for flies-only. He is very intellectually fair. Perhaps the answer is "somewhere in the middle".

I know that .... for example .... I have been travelling to other states on md'ing excursions, and will research ahead for places to detect. And sometimes (perhaps not unlike your location), they are "middle of nowhere" and anyone can walk right out there, blah blah. So my buddy and I will figure : "Then, since it's no secret to the history books, then no doubt others have long-since beat us to it".

Eg.: public utility land, RR right-of-way easement, or .... whatever. And imagine our surprise, when we find some of these places to be virgin ! Despite their being so easy to sleuth out, and walk right to ! Our minds are boggled thinking "why haven't the locals been 'all over this' ?" And .... all we can figure is : The locals knocked themselves silly fretting about the issues, and simply never go.

By all means, if you don't feel comfortable, then don't go.
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Old 12-06-2019, 03:33 PM
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I think the real issue here is that both sides are being argued as black and white, when in reality there is significant gray area here. Some owners care, some do not. It's not flatly stealing, but MDing and removing objects is more intrusive than just passing through.

A MDing person needs to know the risk they are taking when swinging on private lands. I know where I sit on this now, thanks again for the info.

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Old 12-06-2019, 04:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom_in_CA View post
Ha, ME ? I try to do this ? Heck, I'm the one replying to the OTHERS that put md'ing in this class of definition. I am the one painting it as BENIGN and NOT "theft". It is those I'm responding to , who have painted us with a brush of damage and theft. Not me.
Is English your second language? I’ll try this again. You always paint those of us who disagree with you, as people who claim that metal detecting is a nefarious activity. You do this so you can then swoop in and save the day by pointing out how wrong we are and that metal detecting is benign and innocuous. Yet, none of us actually ever say that metal detecting is a nefarious activity. It’s just you, accusing us of saying such things.



Originally Posted by Tom_in_CA View post
Except you, in post #3 here, and multiple other thread's posts.
Again, please show me where I described metal detecting using those words.
Here’s EXACTLY what I said in post #3
Originally Posted by FliesOnly View post
I'm in agreement with ToySoldier on this one. There's a difference between walking/riding across someone’s private property that is not posted, and removing objects from someone’s private property that is not posted.
Now…please show me where I say anything remotely similar to what you’re accusing me of saying.




Originally Posted by Tom_in_CA View post
This is not about public vs private property. We already know it's ok for him to walk there (is the consensus based on his premises). Thus this is only about the nature of the ACTIVITY conducted. Not about the status of the land. Ie.: how do we define md'ing ?
Except is NOT about how we define md’ing. It’s about what is legal and what is illegal. What is ethical and what is unethical.



Originally Posted by Tom_in_CA View post
Ok, then .... what is the definition of md'ing ? And you and I disagree here. I say "equally as harmless" , but in your definition, it's : Stealing.
Sigh…I have never ever ever defined it as such. Ever.



Originally Posted by Tom_in_CA View post
So I'm simply saying : Why aren't you taking that definition out for a test drive ?
Because it’s a stupid definition that NO ONE uses.





Originally Posted by Tom_in_CA View post
does the law define our hobby as "stealing" and "damage" ?
Not that I’m aware of.



Originally Posted by Tom_in_CA View post
In fact, don't "mince words". Use those synonyms next time you're standing in a city-hall desk asking permission.
And why, pray tell, would I do that?




Originally Posted by Tom_in_CA View post
And .... I'm not understanding how those UK guys has a bearing on this.
OK, this time I’ll go a little slower so maybe you’ll understand. In that particular thread, you, along with others, were so happy to explain to us why we’re so lucky in this Country not to have laws similar to those in England, where “The Crown” owns anything buried in the ground, even if it’s on private property. You were happy to point out that over here, YOU own whatever is buried on your property (with a few obvious exceptions). Yet, in THIS thread, you’re telling Splix76 to go onto some else’s property and take items…that you even admit…do not, in fact, belong to Splix76.
Do you truly not see the blatant hypocrisy in what you are saying?
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  #19  
Old 12-06-2019, 04:24 PM
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Originally Posted by FliesOnly View post
.... In that particular thread, you, along with others, were so happy to explain to us why we’re so lucky in this Country not to have laws similar to those in England, where “The Crown” owns anything buried in the ground, even if it’s on private property. You were happy to point out that over here, YOU own whatever is buried on your property...
Good point.
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