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Old 05-06-2018, 02:56 AM
George (MN) George (MN) is offline
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Default 10-40% of US could open to detecting, if

we give them a reason. Township parks, municipal parks, county parks. Maybe even state parks.

Starting at the lower levels of gov't, they might like to hear ideas as to how they can improve finances. Why not buy 3 picnic tables and open-sided shelter ($500 or so) and rent it? Grassy open fields may be what some want. Set up pillows for baseball. Concession stands? Overnight camping?

They could even have park events like antique sale, flea market, community garage sales, something where food and drink is for sale. Pay to watch a ball game. Fish from shore in a contest?

They could even charge us, who'd mind $2 for a annual detecting permit. I know we shouldn't ask to be charged where we aren't charged in areas now open to detecting. But if a historical site could have $2 detecting permits and let you keep what you find, how many of you would object?

Maybe owners of 1800s houses may say yes more often if offered $2 or so.
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Old 05-06-2018, 07:26 AM
GTS225 GTS225 is offline
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Be careful of what you wish for George, you just might get it.
When was the last time you heard of a state shutting down collecting tolls on a toll road after the road was paid for? (It doesn't happen, it's a cash cow for them.)
The same would happen with a municipality. They would slowly start charging more, until eventually, the area was no longer used, and fall into disrepair. It's the nature of the beast, and is a bad cycle for them.

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  #3  
Old 05-06-2018, 07:29 AM
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Originally Posted by George (MN) View post
we give them a reason.....
The devil is in the details. Everything you're writing is only true, if the place(s) you're thinking of truly have a rule that says "no md'ing".

But the problem is (ie.: the "devil in the details") is that scores of people reading what you've written, tend to think that the list of places that are "off-limits" is any place than anyone has ever reported a "scram" from. Which isn't conclusive, since it could simply be someone having a bad hair day, and hence an isolated fluke.

Or any place where a "no" has been issued from (even if from an official pen) , yet no specific rule exists . And the desk-jockey figured you'd harm earthworms , so now his answer has made its way onto an official compendium list that md'rs compiled.

And even the MERE SUGGESTION of permits (like your post does) sends newbies scurrying to inquire if such a thing exists where they're at (after all, can't be too safe), thus leading to "safe answers" , thus simply being a vicious circle of self-fulfillment safe answers. Aaarrgghh.

And once we've reduced the notion to the places which are TRULY currently "off-limits", where it TRULY can't be be any worse, thus you TRULY have nothing to lose with officials to put forward the notion : I still think you are going to be banging your head into a brick wall. NO AMOUNT OF MONEY is going to change their minds. ESPECIALLY if the question ever has to cross an archaeologist's desk. Even if you wave $1,000,000 in front of an archaeologist's nose, there is No way in heck they'd ever sign off on the prospect of you or I ever (gasp) removing a 1944 mercury dime from a Yellowstone campground. Or any such place , on any level, where "cultural heritage" has become the "go-to" reason for any supposed rule.

And most of the rules can be traced back to that. But let's say that "holes" were a reason that some lesser entity (county or city park) had a true and actual rule. And ... sure ... that's less ominous than cultural heritage. Because, sure, holes (turf) can be repaired. And is actually a silly reason in the first place, since we cover our holes, stomp, and fluff anyhow RIGHT ? But let's be dreadfully honest: Do you think they care ? It's almost like saying : "We don't intend to cover them. But don't worry, we'll pay extra". Do you really think they care ?

And do you really think our #'s are enough to raise $$ enough to sway them to allow us (as if they were really allowing us in the first place) to "make holes" ??

If anything, the mere BEING ON THEIR RADAR (as something they have to think of, sanction, collect $$ on, etc...) simply brings ALL THE MORE RULES.

Lest you think I'm dreaming this up: All you need to do is merely look at any place that's ever had a "permit system". And you see that A) It's riddled with sillyness . Eg.: you can't keep anything you find. Or you can't hunt within 20 ft. of any tree. Or your digger shall not exceed 3" length. Or you can only hunt on sandy beaches only, and turn in all old coins, blah blah blah. B) Worse yet, it's rescinded and made off-limits in a few years. Why ? Because it's perpetually on their radar as something they have to handle and think of. Then sure as heck: One year, at their annual board meeting, someone says "Gee, do we really want all these yahoos stealing our past and leaving holes?"

Hence rather than the "more attention" being the better, I'm afraid that with md'ing: The LESS attention the better.

I feel your pain in the areas that have true & current rules. To think that the rules could be over-turned with greenbacks. But it's just that the devil is in the details, and there's no amount of $$ that will get an archie to change his mind. Thus: The less that archies in other places think of you & me, the better.
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Old 05-07-2018, 08:28 AM
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Well said Tom! If my local state park system suddenly posted an offer, selling inexpensive detecting permits, then sure, I'd get one...in addition to the annual parking sticker they also sell. I would not, however, suggest such a proposal.
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Old 05-07-2018, 03:17 PM
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A two dollar permit in one town becomes a two dollar permit in the next town and then a two dollar permit in every town. Then those "two dollar" permits become FIVE Dollar permits and then maybe TEN and TWENTY FIVE dollar permits. I don't know about anyone else but I don't limit my hunting to the town I live in and I'll be damned if I'm going to get a permit in every town I'd like to hunt in. NO, NO, NO to the permit idea.

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Old 05-07-2018, 04:52 PM
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Originally Posted by diggin4clad View post
A two dollar permit in one town becomes a two dollar permit in the next town and then a two dollar permit in every town. Then those "two dollar" permits become FIVE Dollar permits and then maybe TEN and TWENTY FIVE dollar permits.....
Well, it's not that the idea of "permits" doesn't conjur up dreamy images in people's mind's eyes of being able to hunt nilly willy. And it's not that $2, or $5, or $10, or $20 IS AN ISSUE AT ALL ! All of that is an easy dreamy low cost idea of "freedom". So the cost, and the notion IS NOT THE ISSUE.

The issue is that it will never happen. If a place is off-limits (if it's truly so), then no amount of waiving $$ in front of bureaucrats and archies is going to change anything. If anything, it will merely make your "pressing issue" more front & center as something "evil" that needs "permitting" in the first place.

I can understand if a place is/were truly off-limits in the present tense. But no, I don't think approaching them with a "permit" idea is going to change anyone's minds. And simply fills newbies mind's with the notions that they need to rush about like a chicken with their heads cut off seeking "permits".
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Old 05-07-2018, 06:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom_in_CA View post
Well, it's not that the idea of "permits" doesn't conjur up dreamy images in people's mind's eyes of being able to hunt nilly willy. And it's not that $2, or $5, or $10, or $20 IS AN ISSUE AT ALL ! All of that is an easy dreamy low cost idea of "freedom". So the cost, and the notion IS NOT THE ISSUE.

The issue is that it will never happen. If a place is off-limits (if it's truly so), then no amount of waiving $$ in front of bureaucrats and archies is going to change anything. If anything, it will merely make your "pressing issue" more front & center as something "evil" that needs "permitting" in the first place.

I can understand if a place is/were truly off-limits in the present tense. But no, I don't think approaching them with a "permit" idea is going to change anyone's minds. And simply fills newbies mind's with the notions that they need to rush about like a chicken with their heads cut off seeking "permits".
I agree but let's not go putting the "permit" idea into any of the bureaucrat's heads. New York City issues permits to hunt the parks and if I'm not mistaken a permit is also needed for each county in New York.

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Old 05-07-2018, 07:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom_in_CA View post
Well, it's not that the idea of "permits" doesn't conjur up dreamy images in people's mind's eyes of being able to hunt nilly willy. And it's not that $2, or $5, or $10, or $20 IS AN ISSUE AT ALL ! All of that is an easy dreamy low cost idea of "freedom". So the cost, and the notion IS NOT THE ISSUE.

The issue is that it will never happen. If a place is off-limits (if it's truly so), then no amount of waiving $$ in front of bureaucrats and archies is going to change anything. If anything, it will merely make your "pressing issue" more front & center as something "evil" that needs "permitting" in the first place.

I can understand if a place is/were truly off-limits in the present tense. But no, I don't think approaching them with a "permit" idea is going to change anyone's minds. And simply fills newbies mind's with the notions that they need to rush about like a chicken with their heads cut off seeking "permits".
These are some, but not all, of the permit rules for New York City........A permit is needed to hunt in a park or beach area.
When hunting a park no probing or digging is allowed within 25 feet of a tree.
Absolutely no hunting on an athletic field of any type.
Any found jewelry must be turned over to the police who will give you a receipt and then they will hold item for a "period of time"...at which time YOU and the police will try to locate the owner. Period of time not specified.
Items of significant value must be turned over to the Parks Services Division.
Coins with a value of $25 or more are considered "Significant Objects" so turn in all your gold coins, silver dollars, seated coins, Barber Halves, etc. etc. or be in violation of the law.
Applicant MUST show ALL found objects (even clad coins) to an officer upon request.
Each year the applicant must turn in a list of "Significant Objects" with photos to the Parks Services Division before a new annual permit can be issued.
Digging tools cannot be more than 12 inches long or 4 inches wide (a good thing).

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Old 05-07-2018, 08:23 PM
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diggin-4-clad, Re.: New York city: I would LOVE to know how this/these ideas, came on some desk-jockey's minds years ago. Ie.: what inspired them to dream up that nonsense in the first place ?

Eg.: did they happen-chance on to an md'r one day and think "aha! a source of revenue". Or "aha! they might find someone's ring and simply keep it". Or "aha! they might find a gold coin that *technically* should belong in the city coffers".

I have a sneaking suspicion of how this came on their radar as something that needed "permitting", and then led to the silly list of rules that followed. I'll leave that to your imagination, as to the origin.

Originally Posted by diggin4clad View post
.....Coins with a value of $25 or more are considered "Significant Objects" so turn in all your gold coins, silver dollars, seated coins, Barber Halves, etc. etc. or be in violation of the law.
.....
I heard a humorous followup to this: Several years after the imposition of these rules, someone actually followed up with the city of New York, to find out just how many rings or valuable coins had actually been turned in. There was a whopping 4 or 5 objects (coins? rings?) that had actually ever been turned in.

But you and I know the reason: It's because no one is finding "objects of significance", right ? We're all finding common new clad. No seateds, no barbers, no gold rings, etc.... And as for the park worker's ability to be able to study the contents of an md'rs apron: I'll bet you dollars to donuts that no md'r there can ever recall an incident of an md'r being "carded" like that.
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Old 05-07-2018, 11:15 PM
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Originally Posted by diggin4clad View post
A two dollar permit in one town becomes a two dollar permit in the next town and then a two dollar permit in every town. Then those "two dollar" permits become FIVE Dollar permits and then maybe TEN and TWENTY FIVE dollar permits. I don't know about anyone else but I don't limit my hunting to the town I live in and I'll be damned if I'm going to get a permit in every town I'd like to hunt in. NO, NO, NO to the permit idea.
Not the same thing, per se, but I remember Indiana DNR yearly entry passes in the early 90s were $15, today: $50.

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Old 05-07-2018, 11:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom_in_CA View post
diggin-4-clad, Re.: New York city: I would LOVE to know how this/these ideas, came on some desk-jockey's minds years ago. Ie.: what inspired them to dream up that nonsense in the first place ?

Eg.: did they happen-chance on to an md'r one day and think "aha! a source of revenue". Or "aha! they might find someone's ring and simply keep it". Or "aha! they might find a gold coin that *technically* should belong in the city coffers".

I have a sneaking suspicion of how this came on their radar as something that needed "permitting", and then led to the silly list of rules that followed. I'll leave that to your imagination, as to the origin.



I heard a humorous followup to this: Several years after the imposition of these rules, someone actually followed up with the city of New York, to find out just how many rings or valuable coins had actually been turned in. There was a whopping 4 or 5 objects (coins? rings?) that had actually ever been turned in.

But you and I know the reason: It's because no one is finding "objects of significance", right ? We're all finding common new clad. No seateds, no barbers, no gold rings, etc.... And as for the park worker's ability to be able to study the contents of an md'rs apron: I'll bet you dollars to donuts that no md'r there can ever recall an incident of an md'r being "carded" like that.
I'm in regular contact with an MD'er from NYC. He told me that on more than one occasion he was checked by park police to see if he had a permit but they didn't ask to see what he had dug. I'm sure that 99.999% of finds "significant" or not are NOT reported and that most MD'ers haven't been checked to see what they've dug. It's just that these stupid rules are on the books in the first place and that's what makes them dangerous.

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Old 05-08-2018, 12:31 AM
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Originally Posted by GLASSHOPPER1955 View post
Not the same thing, per se, but I remember Indiana DNR yearly entry passes in the early 90s were $15, today: $50.
The average Joe could probably care less about a $35 difference. So me thinks that "15 vs 50" is a red herring to the bigger issue: "Is permits going to solve any off-limits spots or 'scrams' in the first place ?"
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Old 05-08-2018, 12:38 AM
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Originally Posted by diggin4clad View post
..... but they didn't ask to see what he had dug....
Yup. Just as I'd figured. Despite the wording that they retain that right to riffle through your apron.

But that's interesting that you say there's actually been persons carded for their cards. Because I can think of a city here in CA, where a "permit" also got dreamed up. Yet no one in that city can ever recall being carded. Even if you TRY to get carded, by purposefully making circles around workers. The cards are passed out by the club in this city. And an annual lump sum ($10 per head?) presented to the city. But one time, a person (who wasn't a club member) tried to do option B, and get it direct from city hall. He was met with utter confusion, as no one there even knew what he was talking about. So it's interesting that you say there's been actual incidences of persons in NY being carded.
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Old 05-08-2018, 07:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Tom_in_CA View post
The average Joe could probably care less about a $35 difference. So me thinks that "15 vs 50" is a red herring to the bigger issue: "Is permits going to solve any off-limits spots or 'scrams' in the first place ?"
Permits would NOT suddenly open up any previously "off limits" sites to hunting. Those sites would continue to be off limits. What a permit system would do is make ALL sites off limits unless you have a permit. Paying for the permit would "allow" you to hunt sites that were previously open to hunting but the original off limit sites would remain that way. Having a permit system in place would just be a way to pick our pockets.

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Old 05-08-2018, 08:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Tom_in_CA View post
The average Joe could probably care less about a $35 difference. So me thinks that "15 vs 50" is a red herring to the bigger issue: "Is permits going to solve any off-limits spots or 'scrams' in the first place ?"
Nope. There were/are many complaints about the increases. That's a lot of money to people with families.

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Old 05-08-2018, 08:24 AM
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Originally Posted by diggin4clad View post
Permits would NOT suddenly open up any previously "off limits" sites to hunting. Those sites would continue to be off limits. What a permit system would do is make ALL sites off limits unless you have a permit. Paying for the permit would "allow" you to hunt sites that were previously open to hunting but the original off limit sites would remain that way. Having a permit system in place would just be a way to pick our pockets.
Bingo. And I would add that if the notion of "permits for md'ing" crosses the desks, and gets on the radars of places where there is no mention either way (ie.: silent on the subject) of md'ing, then I betcha it causes pencil pushers in those locations to dream up a law that forbids md'ing. Because someone envisions "geeks with shovels" and thinks "oh me oh my, we can't have that".

Thus "permits" are a bad idea for multiple reasons. The less that pencil pusher archie types think of us, the better. Odds are, they don't even think about us, or permits. So why put it in their craw to think of ?
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Old 05-08-2018, 08:24 AM
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We’ve all paid more than enough in taxes over the course of our working lives. Public ground is ours.


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Old 05-08-2018, 08:25 AM
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Originally Posted by GLASSHOPPER1955 View post
Nope. There were/are many complaints about the increases. That's a lot of money to people with families.
Perhaps. Sure. And if those md'rs created a solidarity to object to the $35 increase, then guess what would likely happen ? A committee would be created @ city council to "look into this matter". Then someone on that panel would ask the rest of them: "Gee, do we really want all these yahoos tearing up the park in the first place ?". And then promptly revoke the permit altogether.

Thus: Permits are a bad idea. It does nothing more than perpetually put us on their radar.
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Old 05-08-2018, 06:00 PM
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I vote Tom to be the MD Commissioner.

Going to get a Bumper sticker and all

TOM 4 Commissioner 2019
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Old 05-08-2018, 08:11 PM
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And with those permits, there'd be a pile of ridiculous rules like in NYC. No ballfield hunts, no hunting near a tree, valuable items must be turned in, no this, no that, blah, blah, blah !!!!!! It would open a whole new can of

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