HistoryHippy
Senior Member
I haven't eaten wild turkey in a long time. Roadkill or otherwise those pics made me HONGRY!
Kicked out of the park!
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Foragist
Forum Supporter
Thanks for posting this whole ordeal, HH! Sad to hear it happened to you, but good to be aware that such an attitudinal encounter is possible, and still does happen. Sounds like you handled it pretty well, too. Level heads prevail.
This kind of post and the following discussion help us readers develop perspective on this type of problem, and inspires insight into our own tendencies of reaction. The many examples and suggestions offered give us some good mental tools to use if and when a similar occurrence happens to us.
I refuse to wear khakis, but other options will be considered.
Beachhunter
Elite Member
Choose the hill you’re going to detect on. Don’t let others choose it for you. It would be with apologies I’d disappear, knowing I’d never see her again.
beest
Elite Member
Perhaps here it is slightly different then in the US.
Overhere even police do not know the exact laws about metal detecting, were i know the laws about it exactly. So if one says i can't hunt if i can i will discuss it untill we have clearness.
I have had that, that police wanted to send me away, but after discussion they understood i did nothing wrong and could stay.
So i will not let me send away if i am fully allowed, not even by authorities. And i have experienced it more then once, and it never backfired on me.
At the other side. If i would have let me send away, i would have been send away (for nothing) at least tens of times. Like i said, i am no moron.
And in the case of the story in this topic. I understand madam was an office employee?
As far as i know (at least overhere) office employees have no authority to send someone away. They are not police or whatever. They may only point out at it, no more as anyone may do. They have to call in the police.
Again. I am not talking about US but about a certain country in Europe.
Again. Always friendly off course. And if your not allowed then leave quickly.
HistoryHippy
Senior Member
Where I was what would happen is if the police were involved they would instantly take her word because they were called by a park employee.
They legally dont have to do anything but they do just because they were called.
Then there's a huge discussion if they don't like the discussion or God forbid government employees are proven wrong. Right then and there they would probably arrest me and say "Tell it to the judge".
Maybe not but thats what i saw coming because the cops have bigger criminals to after than a long haired bearded metal detectorist.
Then if i prevailed in the park or in the court house there would be a rule change for sure.
You have to remember these "employees" think they are the rulers of their own little park kingdoms and they let the taxpayers visit.
They legally dont have to do anything but they do just because they were called.
Then there's a huge discussion if they don't like the discussion or God forbid government employees are proven wrong. Right then and there they would probably arrest me and say "Tell it to the judge".
Maybe not but thats what i saw coming because the cops have bigger criminals to after than a long haired bearded metal detectorist.
Then if i prevailed in the park or in the court house there would be a rule change for sure.
You have to remember these "employees" think they are the rulers of their own little park kingdoms and they let the taxpayers visit.
Mud-puppy
Forum Supporter
I saw a tee shirt the other day a deer hunter guy was wearing..said in big letters on the front:
"Official Public Land Owner" I thought that caption would make for a nice detecting shirt...somebody here might be good at designing something like this for us? Simple and to the point and functional...
Pocket tee of course, 100% cotton, long tail obviously like Duluth Trading sells...? Maybe have the caption on the back and a little official looking emblem on the front with a coin or something? "Urban Metal Reclamation Specialist"
HistoryHippy
Senior Member
I just realized I encountered Hamilton OH's version of Leslie Nope!
(Parks and Recreation)
(Parks and Recreation)
T-Man
Elite Member
Oh Crud.... Sorry about that HH, I just moved from Hamilton a little over a month ago, I forgot to tell that lady to quit scramming people from my old hunting grounds 
... I've hunted those parks for about 6 years and never had any issues, been to Millikin Woods, Crawrford, Miami Woods, all the old demo'd elementary school lots. Hit most of the little totters around Hamilton and Lindenwald as well. Used to spend alot of evenings at Joyce Park as well once soccer season ends, (watch out for those skunks, they will chase you) No issues with people at any of them. Sounds like you just ran into a local nut job. If I knew you were local I would of gone hunting with ya if you were interested. Moved to Kettering and not even had a chance to hit my own year yet 
... I've hunted those parks for about 6 years and never had any issues, been to Millikin Woods, Crawrford, Miami Woods, all the old demo'd elementary school lots. Hit most of the little totters around Hamilton and Lindenwald as well. Used to spend alot of evenings at Joyce Park as well once soccer season ends, (watch out for those skunks, they will chase you) No issues with people at any of them. Sounds like you just ran into a local nut job. If I knew you were local I would of gone hunting with ya if you were interested. Moved to Kettering and not even had a chance to hit my own year yet
HistoryHippy
Senior Member
It's all good I'm going back to my previous pattern of early mornings. I'll just work harder on how not to be seen.
Crawford baseball fields and kids spash area are great for coin shooting.
I went past there first that day but a bunch of weird people wearing backpacks and sleeping on the picnic tables gave me the creeps.
Curb strips in Lindenwald. A history in bottle caps!
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Crawford baseball fields and kids spash area are great for coin shooting.
I went past there first that day but a bunch of weird people wearing backpacks and sleeping on the picnic tables gave me the creeps.
Curb strips in Lindenwald. A history in bottle caps!
.
ToySoldier
Forum Supporter
This situation in this particular city involves interpretation of a park rule that was enacted by an ordinance, but isn't a criminal offense in and of itself. Violation of park rules, per the rules, leads to getting the boot. There are already laws everywhere that allow them to file charges against somebody creating actual damage. But, the park rules give the park staff a level of interpretation to stop people doing things before they lead to something more serious. The park rules allow the staff to control how people use the park.
But, if he refused to stop and she called the police, two things would have likely happened. One, the cop would take her word as far as interpretation of park rules. (If it was just some random person, then the cop probably wouldn't do anything. ) Two, a continued refusal to quit could escalate to trespassing. Now the cop has law to chew on.
Whether the office manager has the authority to interpret and enforce park rules and ultimately trespass somebody, I have no idea. As somebody mentioned above, it could be a "tell it to the judge" situation after getting cited or arrested. Unless you get a cop on a very bad day, or you're just being belligerent, you should have a chance to walk away.
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HistoryHippy
Senior Member
I have all park rules and regulations downloaded on my phone. This particular park employee emphatically refused to read them when confronted. She just continued to scream at me.
Tom_in_CA
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Here in the USA, the law does indeed give the park personnel (even the lowly gardener, rank & file ranger, etc...) to interpret the grey area rules to apply. I know that sounds arbitrary and capricious, but .... when you think of it, it simply has to be that way.
I floated this question to a lawyer, because I'd been "scrammed" by a city employee, when no *specific* law actually said "no md'ing". I reasoned that an employee can't arbitrarily say that my action falls afoul of ancillary wording (alter, deface, harvest, remove). But the lawyer corrected me and said that .... yes .... that is the authority/liberty given to them, to accomplish their job.
And the more I thought about it , the more I understood. Because it's simply impossible for rules and regulations to be written to cover EVERY SINGLE THING that might occur in the field. Therefore there's always "catch-all" language, so that it can fit various specifics that arise in the field. That's why, for example, there's vague laws that forbid "annoyances" or "blocking sidewalks", etc....
If the power to interpret/apply on-the-spot weren't granted to the rank & file, then : People would FOREVER BE ARGUING SEMANTICS with public personnel trying to do their jobs. Eg.: "But officer, I wasn't violating the nudity laws, because technically I wasn't nude, since I was wearing one sock", blah blah
And I guarantee you that: Somewhere in those "rules and regulations", there will be *something* about "alter" or "deface" or "dig" or "destroy", blah blah. Oh sure, you can argue semantics and try-to-prove your actions don't fall under those parameters (because you're going to leave no trace). But .... why bother with that debate ? I mean, let's be honest: A man with a metal detector, armed with a digging tool, guess what the ramifications/image tends to be ? Holes, of course.
HistoryHippy
Senior Member
And here it is...
!!!Preservation of Property and Plant Material.
!!!!!(1) !!!No person shall in any way damage, deface, destroy, or remove any part of a City of Hamilton owned facility, sign, equipment. or other property.
!!!!!(2) !!!No person shall damage, destroy, deface, or remove any part of any tree. flower, shrub or other vegetation.
!!!Preservation of Property and Plant Material.
!!!!!(1) !!!No person shall in any way damage, deface, destroy, or remove any part of a City of Hamilton owned facility, sign, equipment. or other property.
!!!!!(2) !!!No person shall damage, destroy, deface, or remove any part of any tree. flower, shrub or other vegetation.
Tom_in_CA
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Yup. And I guarantee you that similar verbiage exists in the boiler plate fine print of EVERY PARK (and beach, and forest, and desert, etc....) IN THE ENTIRE USA.
Yet .... oddly ... there is no shortage of show & tell, that we md'rs show back and forth from (gasp) park finds. How can that be ??
Are we all lawless miscreants ??
Beachhunter
Elite Member
Yep! You don’t want to love a metal detectorists. We’re all Rebels!
beest
Elite Member
And what is damage??
If in that park some kind of festival is being held then all kinds of posts, tents and stages are placed on and in the same ground, anchored in the ground with large pins, with much more damage than a neat metal detectorist. And then suddenly it is allowed?
"Yes, but then the damage is repaired." Duh, I also do that when i close my holes again neatly, and still with less damage then a festival.
I even think sports (football) played in a park damage more. People putting beach umbrellas in the ground. If follow up your 1&2 nothing can be done in the park no more. Not even let a dog sh**.
With these kind of arguments i always won when someones tried to send me away but then understood i do no harm.
Many times i said it: "i have hunted here for X hours now and made tens of holes. Can you point them?" and they never could and understood.
I even got written permissions with these arguments to hunt on places which are specially forbiden with reasons like WWII and so on.
I know no better than that there are equal rights and obligations in the US to, just like here. I as metal detectorist also have rights.
And otherwise i pop the coins.
That is at least not digging as with a shovel "i aint digging! weres my shovel?!" and no more damage then a lady on high heels makes.Only telling. With disclaimer to not follow it blind.
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Tom_in_CA
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And what is damage??
If in that park some kind of festival is being held then all kinds of posts, tents and stages are placed on and in the same ground, anchored in the ground with large pins, with much more damage than a neat metal detectorist. And then suddenly it is allowed?
....
Beest, you are failing to take into account the following difference between those festival goers and md'rs is :
The Festival goes did not go into the powers-that-be offices asking : "Hi, can we dig holes in the turf and leave damage please ?". If they had done so, then THEY TOO could have fetched "no". And then THEY TOO could have started forums lamenting their lack of freedoms.
Thus shame on those festival goers, eh ?
(Or .... maybe the lesson here .... is shame on md'rs for asking silly questions ?
)
beest
Elite Member
Or for people to easily taking no for an answer?
No, they drive poles a yard or more deep in the ground, and more then i dig holes. More damage then when i dig.
Town doesn't want damage. I do not damage, and i make that clear to them. What would be there problem?
Rules here for parks, flora and fauna, are not that much different if i read here. Still no one gave me a definitive no for answer. At first often, but eventually not.
I told what i want to tell.
Do with it whatever you want. Or not, which doesn't disadvantage me. Just sharing with the best intentions.
No, they drive poles a yard or more deep in the ground, and more then i dig holes. More damage then when i dig.
Town doesn't want damage. I do not damage, and i make that clear to them. What would be there problem?
Rules here for parks, flora and fauna, are not that much different if i read here. Still no one gave me a definitive no for answer. At first often, but eventually not.
I told what i want to tell.
Do with it whatever you want. Or not, which doesn't disadvantage me. Just sharing with the best intentions.
Tom_in_CA
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Sure. But that just begs the question: Why even set yourself up for an arbitrary and whimsical "no", ... TO BEGIN WITH ! ?
Sure. You're right : Other routine unquestioned park activities do more damage than us md'rs. I agree. And again I point you to the difference : MD'rs somehow feel the need to either A) ask "Can I?", or B) Won't proceed unless they see an express explicit "md'ing allowed" answer from somewhere . Versus those driving a pole into the ground don't feel they need to get an express "yes" from anywhere.
And I can totally understand why md'rs evolved to think in this grovelling fashion: Because I "was there" during the evolution of all of this, since the 1970s :
It's because all-it-ever took was any "scary story" (no matter how far away and remote) of a booting, or a scram, or some city that ever dreamed up a "permit". Then what began to happen way-back-when, was: When word of these type things got out back in the 1970s and early '80s, was the following psychology : Anyone reading or hearing about such things, immediately wondered "Gee, what about my area then ?" So guess what they did, in order to "be sure" ? Yup, waltz in (or send a letter, or make calls, etc...) asking "can I?".
So you see how the stories (no matter how far away, and no matter that it didn't have anything at all to do with your area) simply had a self-fulfilling vicious circle effect ?
This is why I sometimes cringe when someone gleefully comes on a thread talking about the "permit" their city issues. Or asking "Is it legal in such & such location ?". Because I realize that the MERE MENTION of issues such as this spurns others to wonder the same thing , about places with utterly no connection and no dis-allowance.
As a newbie who didn't know any better, I asked for permission in my local Ohio town of 18,000 and got written (via e-mail) permission from our parks and rec superintendent himself. Definitely holding onto that e-mail!
Edit: Of course I realize if I piss off a parks worker, abuse the privilege, etc., that he could revoke permission or encourage city council to pass a rule banning it so I will still tread carefully. Currently our city has nothing on the books permitting or banning it here, but generally the parks and rec people are favorable towards it.
Edit: Of course I realize if I piss off a parks worker, abuse the privilege, etc., that he could revoke permission or encourage city council to pass a rule banning it so I will still tread carefully. Currently our city has nothing on the books permitting or banning it here, but generally the parks and rec people are favorable towards it.
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