A lost-&-found laws story that bears repeating

Tom_in_CA

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I haven't seen this story in a few years. So I'll post it here again. It has bearing on the legal ramifications of the rings we find. Especially beach hunters where, jewelry hunting is par for their course :)

There was a young blue collar couple in ..... I think it was either Oregon or Washington. In some small podunk town on the back side of the state . There was a singular shopping center in that town, and the couple had gone there to buy their groceries one day.

As they were walking across the parking lot, the gal saw something shiny on the ground. And picked up a ring with a very big stone in it. So gaudy, that they thought it was just costume jewelry. She put it in her purse, and they proceeded to do their shopping. When she got home, she just put it on the table, not giving it much thought.

A day or two later, she took another look at it. This time with a magnifier . And she could see that it was stamped 18k or something. It felt heavy, so... she began to wonder if this was actually gold. But when looking at the stone, it was so big, they figured it had to be cubic zirconia . Neither one of them was too bright on jewelry I guess. But their curiosity began to get the better of them.

They took it to the only jewelry store in town, which was the same shopping center. Asked the jeweler: "Is this real ? And if so, what's it worth ? " The jeweler confirmed that it was gold.

But after studying the stone for a minute with his scope, the jeweler says: "Well, I'm not a gemologist. So I can't say for certain about the stone. However: The traveling gemologist comes through this part of the state, making his rounds, a time or two per month. He'll be here in a few days. So why don't you leave it here, with your name & #. And I'll have him take a look at it".

The couple agreed, and left the ring with the jeweler. He jotted their name & ph. # down on an index card.

A few days later the gemologist was paying his route stop visit to the jeweler.
The jeweler brought out the ring, showed it to the gemologist. And says: " A couple brought this in. Wants to know if this is a real diamond". The guy studies it, and determines it to be the real mCcoy. Some enormous 2 or 3 carat stone !

But something looks familiar/fishy about this ring. It triggers a memory. He goes to his briefcase, looks through various papers. And retrieves a fax he had received a week or two earlier. It had been sent out by the FBI, to various pawn shops, smelters, jewelers, etc.. Over a several state area, to "B.O.L. for this stolen ring". And it had a grainy black & white pix of it. And instructed anyone who sees this, to call such & such ph. #" And this gemologist had somehow been on that fax list.

The 2 men called the ph. #, as instructed, on the B.O.L. Within an hour, there were 2 detectives there. They had the sharp color picture. The match was definite. This was the ring. They ask the jeweler : "Where'd you get this ?". The jeweler retrieved the index card for them.

The detectives made the decision to set up a sting. They told the jeweler to call the couple, and tell them to come in for their ring. The jeweler did so. Telling them: "The gemologist is here. You want to come in and ... he can tell you in person, about your stone" .

Continued in the next panel :
 
5 or 10 minutes later, the couple walks in. The detective spring up from their hiding spots and cuff them ! The confused couple didn't know what the heck was going on. When they started hearing about "stolen property", they quickly pleaded "But we only found it !".

But ... you know the drill : That's what EVERY thief says when caught with stolen property, eh ? The old song & dance of "But officer, I only found it". Right ? So the cops weren't falling for it. They got carted away in handcuffs.

At this point the story began to un-ravel a bit more: What had happened was, is that a wealthy business women had gone on a long business trip. That required her to travels hundred & hundreds of miles, through the Pac. Northwest. Attending several business meetings along the way. At a certain point, she realized her ring was missing ! She thought she might have left it on the night-stand of the hotel she'd stayed at the night before. She quickly calls them. But the hotel claims to have found no ring . But the lady wasn't so convinced. Thinking perhaps an unscrupulous maid might have pocketed it.

Or perhaps she'd left it on the sink in the ladies room, where she'd had breakfast that morning, when going to wash her hands ? Or perhaps someone palmed it when shaking hands at the business meeting she'd attended that day ?? SHE SIMPLY DIDN'T KNOW where it had gone missing. :(

After searching her vehicle top to bottom, and many calls hither and yonder, and retracing her steps, she began to fear it was gone . So she made an insurance claim. Because the ring was fully insured against theft, damage, etc... However, in order to open a claim with the insurance, they required a police report.

She went to her local police, but .... since it wasn't clear what state it was lost in, it wasn't clear what jurisdiction of LEO the report should be filed in. Also, because of the sheer dollar value, somehow ...(perhaps the insurance forwarded it ?) it ended up @ the F.B.I. Needless to say, the insurance company doesn't want to pay out on something, if they don't need to. So the insurance Co. had perhaps rattled a bunch of bureaucratic chains, and got this all-points bulletin put out. And somehow, by the time it got to that level, it had simply said "stolen" ?

Because, I suppose, EVEN IF THE LADY HAD INDEED left it on the sink at the ladies room in the restaurant, or had left it on the nightstand at the hotel, ... Still, no matter how you slice it ... the next person who comes along and pockets it, has "stolen" it. Right ? So.... for whatever reasons, by the time it got into the B.O.L., it was listed as "stolen".

Continued in next panel :
 
Meanwhile, back at the police station, under grilling, the young couple sticks to their story that they "found" it. So the cops say "ok, where?". The couple says it was found in that same shopping center parking lot, as where the sting had gone down. Contact was made with the wealthy business lady, to let her know the ring had surfaced. And they quizzed the lady about .... if she knew anything about such & such city, and such & such parking lot.

The business lady recollected that .... yes ... she had pulled off the highway, during that trip, stopped in that little town to get a coffee from a Starbucks . And then had promptly gone back on the road to continue driving. Just a short pit stop on this trip. The FBI then re-traced the time-line, and determined that the day she had stopped there, was the exact day this couple was claiming to have found it. And that the time stamps of the coffee-stop, and time stamp of the couple grocery shopping, was all matching up. Heck, they could even determine that the lady who'd gone to the starbucks there, could recollect parking at about such & such parking spot, and that the couple's walk route would have gone right past there a few hours later.

The cops began to accept that ... ok ... so the young couple "found" it. And perhaps it was never "stolen" to begin with (ie.: "lost" not "stolen")

HOWEVER, THEIR TROUBLES WERE NOT OVER ! They were accused of intent to sell. Because they had asked the jeweler "what's it worth". Which seemed to imply : "Intent to sell" . This went back and forth for awhile, and evidently, they were still guilty of violating the state's lost & found laws . Ie.: any item over a $50 or $100 value, was to have been turned in to the police station, for proper lost & found procedure.

I forget what the end result of this was. Anyone remember this story ?

It has ramifications on our md'ing hobby. Well, at least jewelry hunters . Perhaps relic and coin hunters are off-the-hook. But a quick look down the pages of any "finds" forums (especially if it's beach hunter related), and you see no shortage of show & tell bragging right rings.

And in every one of the 50 states, there are lost & found laws. Born out of wandering cattle laws of the 1800s. And there'll be a dollar value threshold (typically $100) to which you are required to turn in items to the police. After 30 days, if no one claims it, then you supposedly get the item.

The law makes no distinction on when YOU think the item was lost (eg.: buried deeply in a park, so you *assume* it's been there a long time, and long-since-forgotten). And the law makes no distinction on how an item is valued. Eg.: store value when new ? pawn shop value ? melt value ? etc....

As you can see, this has ramifications to our hobby. But me ?? I never find rings over $99 value. Do you ? :p
 
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Thanks for taking the time to post this. I think when you find a fresh drop like this and a high value one, the logical thing is to handle it by the book, (police, etc.). If the couple did technically violate the law, I hope the DA used "enforcement discretion" and let them off.
 
Serves them right! Ya see, this is what happens to people who dont Metal detect and have no support system or idea about precious things!...So yeah, hope they all got hard time!..

The filing of a False report of a stolen item for insurance fraud by the dropper,, and charges laid against the finders for being ignorant and not doing their own research...

Prob should throw the jeweler and his appraiser in the clinker too, just on the principal of the whole thing!
 
I've heard about this story before and its a bit odd in some degree but I believe that it was a bad set of circumstances.
For us though, the bottom line is, we all know what we find. If it was a 3ct diamond ring then I feel most (well I hope) would do their due diligence to find the owner. Most of us have test kits and such so there's no denying its real and secondly if anyone wanted to keep a ring like that then it obviously in your best interest to do your due diligence so that it falls into your ownership according to whatever laws apply.
Maybe I speak for myself here but thats just how I would handle it. Besides, if you lost something of that value, you'd be looking for it to.
 
.... The filing of a False report of a stolen item for insurance fraud by the dropper,, ....

Puppy-mud : For us md'rs, when we find rings, we know, in our mind: Fumble-fingers lost. Right ? So in our minds, we assume that the person who lost it, ... ALSO knows they "lost" it. Right ?

But not really. Because a lot of times, when a person looses something, they simply don't know where/when it went missing. They might just look down at their hand, and realize the ring is gone. Without any recollection of when it went missing.

Hence, as in the story, the lady mused she might have left it at the hotel on the night-stand. Therefore meaning that if a maid pocketed it, it would indeed be "stolen". Or if she leaves it at the sink at the restaurant when she went to wash her hands, and the next person simply keeps it, that means the next person "stole" it. Not "found" it. See ? Instead, it had apparently fell from the lady's finger when she gone to get a cup of coffee. Therefore "lost", right ? But not really: Because the next passerby who "finds" it, and "keeps" it, has therefore "stolen" it. See ?

So there was no "false claim" by the lady, for listing it as "stolen", instead of "lost".

And therefore, if you think of it, that simply legally means that WE TOO are no different that the person who finds a ring on the sink in a public restroom. Or a person who "finds" a mountain bike leaning against a tree in the park, etc.... In the same way that they've "stolen" it, by not making the proper legal channels of lost & found work, then SO TOO are all of us md'rs "stealing". By not rushing to the police dept. with each ring we find (Well, at least rings that trigger the dollar value threshold requirement).

I know you are racked with guilt right now. Eh ? But not to worry : Just box up all your stuff and send it to me. I will absolve your conscience of all guilt. It's the least I can do for a fine forumite contributor like yourself. :friends:
 
... If it was a 3ct diamond ring then I feel most (well I hope) would do their due diligence to find the owner. ....

And, assuming very large stones like that : If the md'r is not one to do the police station procedure, and decides instead to keep it, then there's some pitfalls he needs to be aware of.

Even though it might be true that the ring has been lost for years. And in that md'rs mind: It's logical that the person has long-since given up looking for it. Or simply has a "finder's keepers" attitude about it. Then consider the following:

In recent times, some owners, of very large stones like that, will have them micro-engraved with a serial #. Like perhaps the insurance requires this. Perhaps they came from the diamond cutter , in the supply chain, with a serial # of the origin, etc.... The # is so small, that it takes a microscope to see.

Those #'s CAN be traced, I think . Some might only be the original source. Yet would not tell you nothing about the distribution chain since then (ie.: wholesaler to retailer to customer, and then the customer could sell to another, etc...). But other times: A micro-# on there could be traced to a single individual owner. Like if the owner does that for insurance purposes.

The ramifications of that is: That if the md'r ever went to sell the ring, and if someone else matched that to an owner, you could therefore be in possession of stolen property. Just like in the story of this O.P. I guess as long as the md'r didn't sell it, then this risk doesn't exist. Or he could simply go to a jeweler, with the right scopes, and ask them to please see if there's any laser engraving, before any such sell-attempt.
 
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"Guilty until proven innocent" because some "rich *itch " couldn't keep track of her ring, now that's irony ! Thanks for posting this Tom . I would sure liked to have known all the particulars of this case , who the participants were and how it ended up . I'll just keep doing what I'm doing and keep on digging up pulltabs and let the rings stay in the ground lest I end up in prison having to fight off the advances of "Big Bubba" .:fear:
 
And, assuming very large stones like that : If the md'r is not one to do the police station procedure, and decides instead to keep it, then there's some pitfalls he needs to be aware of.

Even though it might be true that the ring has been lost for years. And in that md'rs mind: It's logical that the person has long-since given up looking for it. Or simply has a "finder's keepers" attitude about it. Then consider the following:

In recent times, some owners, of very large stones like that, will have them micro-engraved with a serial #. Like perhaps the insurance requires this. Perhaps they came from the diamond cutter , in the supply chain, with a serial # of the origin, etc.... The # is so small, that it takes a microscope to see.

Those #'s CAN be traced, I think . Some might only the original source, but might tell you nothing about the distribution chain since then (ie.: wholesaler to retailer to customer, and then the customer could sell to another, etc...). But other times: A micro-# on there could be traced to a single individual owner. Like if the owner does that for insurance purposes.

The ramifications of that is: That if the md'r ever went to sell the ring, and if someone else matched that to an owner, you could therefore be in possession of stolen property. Just like in the story of this O.P. I guess as long as the md'r didn't sell it, then this risk doesn't exist. Or he could simply go to a jeweler, with the right scopes, and ask them to please see if there's any laser engraving, before any such sell-attempt.

A very good point and probably why this iterates the point to do you due diligence to find the owner considering something like a large stone has a serial number.
Granted this is probably not common but I bet most would not even think of that and something to consider if you found something of very high value.
 
A very good point and probably why this iterates the point to do you due diligence to find the owner considering something like a large stone has a serial number.
Granted this is probably not common but I bet most would not even think of that and something to consider if you found something of very high value.

I know a fellow .... not far from me ... Who found a platinum ring with a big stone. At first, he thought the ring was silver (d/t the silver-ish color of platinum and silver are similar). It wasn't till he got home, and took another look, that he saw the platinum stamp inside.

And it was clear that the stone was pushing 2 carat diamond ! I asked him if he'd checked to see if there was any laser engraving. He said "no". But .... he's the type that never sells.

I kind of took a dim view of this. Because .... heck ... if he's the type that "never sells", then how the heck has he been impacted ? If indeed it could be repatriated ? He wasn't going to sell anyhow, so he wasn't going to realize any financial gain anyhow, why not try to find an owner ? If it's just for the sport of the hobby, then the personal-satisfaction of a re-union, should be equally satisfying.
 
Great.... now I need to find a good Fence to add to my MDing needs. Not that I find anything over $100 anyway.
 
I know a fellow .... not far from me ... Who found a platinum ring with a big stone. At first, he thought the ring was silver (d/t the silver-ish color of platinum and silver are similar). It wasn't till he got home, and took another look, that he saw the platinum stamp inside.

And it was clear that the stone was pushing 2 carat diamond ! I asked him if he'd checked to see if there was any laser engraving. He said "no". But .... he's the type that never sells.

I kind of took a dim view of this. Because .... heck ... if he's the type that "never sells", then how the heck has he been impacted ? If indeed it could be repatriated ? He wasn't going to sell anyhow, so he wasn't going to realize any financial gain anyhow, why not try to find an owner ? If it's just for the sport of the hobby, then the personal-satisfaction of a re-union, should be equally satisfying.

I hunt with someone very similar in fact and I fall into the same view with him. He's found his fair share of things that he could tried to find the owner of but has not only to add it to his "collection". Not to say has not tried ever but I think we start to cover the moral fiber of finding and returning lost items.
Even then, what what do you consider trying to return based on value? Does a simple 10 dollar silver ring apply or do most stuff it away not thinking anything of it? Who knows it could of been grandma's handed down ring that meant the world to them.
I guess my point is that some will and some wont try depending on their view and on what they find but hopefully most of us do what you feel is right. Certainly finding an item worth thousands can change things but I think it is a matter of perspective too regardless of the actual value.
 
Puppy-mud : For us md'rs, when we find rings, we know, in our mind: Fumble-fingers lost. Right ? So in our minds, we assume that the person who lost it, ... ALSO knows they "lost" it. Right ?

But not really. Because a lot of times, when a person looses something, they simply don't know where/when it went missing. They might just look down at their hand, and realize the ring is gone. Without any recollection of when it went missing.

Hence, as in the story, the lady mused she might have left it at the hotel on the night-stand. Therefore meaning that if a maid pocketed it, it would indeed be "stolen". Or if she leaves it at the sink at the restaurant when she went to wash her hands, and the next person simply keeps it, that means the next person "stole" it. Not "found" it. See ? Instead, it had apparently fell from the lady's finger when she gone to get a cup of coffee. Therefore "lost", right ? But not really: Because the next passerby who "finds" it, and "keeps" it, has therefore "stolen" it. See ?

So there was no "false claim" by the lady, for listing it as "stolen", instead of "lost".

And therefore, if you think of it, that simply legally means that WE TOO are no different that the person who finds a ring on the sink in a public restroom. Or a person who "finds" a mountain bike leaning against a tree in the park, etc.... In the same way that they've "stolen" it, by not making the proper legal channels of lost & found work, then SO TOO are all of us md'rs "stealing". By not rushing to the police dept. with each ring we find (Well, at least rings that trigger the dollar value threshold requirement).

I know you are racked with guilt right now. Eh ? But not to worry : Just box up all your stuff and send it to me. I will absolve your conscience of all guilt. It's the least I can do for a fine forumite contributor like yourself. :friends:


Can I send my stuff too, so assuage my guilt?

I have several hundred pull tabs, nails, can slaw, etc that I'd be happy to get off my conscience :)
 
I hunt with someone very similar in fact and I fall into the same view with him. He's found his fair share of things that he could tried to find the owner of but has not only to add it to his "collection". Not to say has not tried ever but I think we start to cover the moral fiber of finding and returning lost items.....

Salt-shaker: As much as we all enjoy the good tear-jerker heart-warming re-union story , there has also been a few stories, circulated on md'ing forums, of reunions gone bad.

Eg.: I knew a guy who found a class ring @ a neighborhood school right by his home. Found the owner of the ring, that lived just down the street from them. Tried to make contact, saying "I've got your ring" on the person's phone answering machine.

That night, as his family sat down for dinner, guess who showed up at the door ? THE POLICE !! Turns out that the home of the ring owner had been the subject of a burglary earlier that week. And the ring was one of the items missing. So now the md'r was suspect in the burglary. The md'r quickly explained to the police that he'd "found" it. Even going to fetch his machine, and show them that this was his hobby.

The police didn't seem amused, and took the ring. Saying "We'll be in contact with you as the investigation continues". The family sat back down to a dinner , but ... now everyone had lost their appetite. For weeks thereafter, they didn't know if the police would return for more questioning. Or if their neighbors suspected them of stealing, etc... From then on, that md'r NEVER made a repatriation attempt thereafter.

But, fortunately, those type stories are few and far between. Most of the time, there's a good human relations story that emerges.
 
Can I send my stuff too, so assuage my guilt?

I have several hundred pull tabs, nails, can slaw, etc that I'd be happy to get off my conscience :)

Are you trying to tell me you've never found gold rings ? Rings that exceed the value of your state's L&F law threshold ? Ok, I'll take your word for it. And since you've been such an honest fellow, you can keep those nails, can-slaw, tabs, etc.... I'll pass thank you :D
 
Are you trying to tell me you've never found gold rings ? Rings that exceed the value of your state's L&F law threshold ? Ok, I'll take your word for it. And since you've been such an honest fellow, you can keep those nails, can-slaw, tabs, etc.... I'll pass thank you :D

Nope...never found anything even remotely approaching the value for Illinois...unfortunately....I wish that I COULD "run afoul" of that particular outdated law...

so I'd be happy to send you all my previously listed items...I'll even include some .22 shell casings that I've found and been unable to repatriate :)
 
Fortunately, the law in Illinois is relatively benign:


A person who obtains control over lost or mislaid property commits theft when he:

1. Knows or learns the identity of the owner or knows, or is aware of, or learns of a reasonable method of identifying the owner, and
2. Fails to take reasonable measures to restore the property to the owner, and
3. Intends to deprive the owner permanently of the use or benefit of the property.

(I am not a lawyer, and this is not legal advice)
 
Fortunately, the law in Illinois is relatively benign:


A person who obtains control over lost or mislaid property commits theft when he:

1. Knows or learns the identity of the owner or knows, or is aware of, or learns of a reasonable method of identifying the owner, and
2. Fails to take reasonable measures to restore the property to the owner, and
3. Intends to deprive the owner permanently of the use or benefit of the property.

(I am not a lawyer, and this is not legal advice)

Good input. Thanx for adding that.

Interesting indeed. It sets no value criteria for which "reasonable measures" is to be invoked. And instead seems to just cover ALL property. And it leave open to ambiguous interpretation what "reasonable measures" are. I mean, ... gee.... someone can abuse that easily.

For example: What if I think "reasonable measures" is to pin a note to any nearby telephone pole, saying "found ring. Call such & such ph. # to identify"
(knowing full well that the right person is not likely to see that paper pinned to a pole).

Does our ability to find a jeweler, who has microscopes capable of reading micro-engraving, constitute "reasonable measures" ? In the example of my friend , who failed to take any measure whatsoever, can't he just say "I didn't know there was such #'s on there" ?

When I researched CA's L&F laws years ago, it simply sets a value threshold. And just says to turn them in to the police. It does NOT give YOU AND I the latitude to make our own repatriation attempts (eg.: run a "found" ad on CL, or pin a note to a telephone pole, etc...). And the lawyer I talked to about this, said that there was good reason for this. Because otherwise, unscrupulous persons could make feeble efforts, that are meant to thwart finding an actual owner, for the intent of just keeping it.

I ran into this myself, when I ran a "found" ad once. A lady officer from the beach-side resort town I'd run the ad in, answered my ad. Asking if my item matched such & such description. Turns out, my item did not match the description. So I replied back "Sorry, not the right description". But this is where it got funky : She had apparently seen my reference to "found with metal detector". And she replied back a 3rd time and said ".... In the future, please bring anything you find to the police station. If the station is closed, there is a night-drop box slot on the door. In order to be in compliance with the law.... "

That last part (in bold italics) had me scratching my head. So I began to do research on the subject. And it was then, that I realized, that ... *technically*, ... we are all running afoul of this. I will be very careful about ever running a "found" ad again (at least in that city's CL , doh! )
 
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