When to ask permission...

Its really a touchy subject. Today I was in a park I've detected numerous times with no issues. I always take my trash with me and make it look like I was never there. This park has absolutely NO signs posted anywhere. I was there a good two hours and I look up and the police chief is walking toward me. This is my hometown which is why I know he is the chief. He tells me he got a phone call from a neighbor and told me he had no issues with what I was doing, but I should seek permission from the town selectman to detect the area. All I said was okay and asked him when I could meet the selectman.....now I'm almost positive that I don't need to seek permission from anyone to hunt this area unless posted otherwise. But I didn't want any trouble and just moved along. Some people are just nosey and have nothing better to do. I'm sure the person watched the whole incident go down and got pleasure out of seeing me leave. But I can't wait to go back WITH permission just so that nosey neighbor can call the police again and I can explain to them that I now have permission and won't have to leave this time. Do I seek permission before I hunt public property. NEVER. If I'm asked to leave than I leave its as simple as that. There's plenty of places to go.

jefflima101012 said:

.... He tells me he got a phone call from a neighbor and told me he had no issues with what I was doing, ....

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The part in quotes above is VERY *TELLING* . Read it slowly. Then ask yourselves: Did the cop have any issue with what you were doing ? No. Thus for example: If he had just been happen-chance driving by, glanced over, and saw a man detecting, what would he have thought? Probably nothing at all, and kept going. Thus why was he even there then ? BECAUSE SOMEONE CALLED TO GRIPE. So in those cases, when a cop has to go out, he subconsciously has to justify the call-out, in his mind.

I do not always count such things as "issues that need to be ironed out" then. I've even had cops who .... after some chit-chat, will admit the reason they're there (much like your situation). And then with a wink say "come back later" or "go to the other side of the park where this person's window isn't looking right down on this corner of the park".

And notice that those are just situations where a nice cop happens to tel you the *real* reason he's there. Who knows how often they just "make is simple" and say "you can't do that" ? Or "you need to talk to the selectman" (or whomever). When in all reality, they could care less, and the odds of "miss-lookie-lou-caller" seeing you again, is slim.

You can certainly go see the selectman, but be careful: They might envision "geeks with shovels", and say "no" (when no such rule really exists, nor would they have given it a moment's thought either, till you came in asking). Thus sometimes it's better just to "avoid miss-lookie-lou". But each situation can be different, I know.

Very true ...I could tell he was just as uncomfortable about the altercation as I was. I'm going to talk to the selectman either way and if he says no detecting at all , its okay. Only because there's plenty of locations to go like permissions and other towns. The o ly reason I want to gain permission from the selectman is so I can go back to that park and basically show the nosey neighbor that what we do as our hobby is not destructive by any means and its actually beneficial to our environment. I saw a post not long ago where a guy pulled three steak knives out of a park. If people could see that post I'm sure it would change a lot of opinions on our hobby. After I leave the Selectman's office (hopefully with permission) I will then go to the police station with news of gaining permission and continue where I left off. Will let the forum know how this goes.

jefflima101012 said:

.... I'm going to talk to the selectman either way and if he says no detecting at all , its okay. ...

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If a park was giving up choice old silver coins, then .... in my mind, that would not be "ok" to me.

Here's a true story from here, of something similar:

A buddy & I got hassled by a lady cop, at a park about 1.5 hrs. from me. This was a park that I detect whenever passing through that part of our state. And has given up lots of choice barbers, etc.... And as been md'd since the late 1970s, at least. But this one day, in the early 2000s, my friend and I got hassled.

Turned out we were just leaving anyhow, so we gave lip service, and left. Soon thereafter, I met a guy on line, who just happened to be from that exact city. So I told him of our encounter. He was surprised, because he's detected there (as have his mentors) for years w/o issue. So this new friend was going to "go down to city hall and get it ironed out". Or, like you, "get permission so as to deflect such a possible encounter", etc...

But I discouraged him from doing so, because I was afraid it could result in a "no", that would .... somehow, become "official" thereafter. He agreed and didn't make a stink about it. But you can BET that he had "one eye over his shoulder" from then on out. Nothing ever happened to him, and he eventually forgot about it, dropped his guard, etc....

A year or so later, I found myself travelling through that part of the state, and his the park. No problem, no issue.

That was 17 or 18 yrs ago, and I've hit this park scores of times since then. Never again had an issue. So I'm guessing that the lady cop was perhaps just responding to some park-goer's cell-phone call gripe.

Moral of the story: sometimes you have to just treat things as "flukes", rather than making yourself a giant red bullseye, risking getting a true & actual real rule (or policy or whatever). JMHO.

Alrite so what if I go back and the cops are called again. I know its not grounds of an arrest but I can't let the locals think they are right when they call the police on me. I also dont want to get on the police forces bad side for not heeding the first warning. In the locals mind I'm doing something wrong. When really there's nothing posted or no town rules stating the use of metal detectors is prohibited or illegal. There for the selectman should not turn me aside either way. If he bases his decision on personal belief than that's just wrong. But I think its the right thing to do in this case.

jefflima101012 said:

Alrite so what if I go back and the cops are called again. I know its not grounds of an arrest but I can't let the locals think they are right when they call the police on me. I also dont want to get on the police forces bad side for not heeding the first warning. In the locals mind I'm doing something wrong. When really there's nothing posted or no town rules stating the use of metal detectors is prohibited or illegal. There for the selectman should not turn me aside either way. If he bases his decision on personal belief than that's just wrong. But I think its the right thing to do in this case.

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Excellent question! And I did not want to go into that arena, in the interest of space (so that my post didn't get too lengthy). The answer to your question is:

a) For starters, you are assuming it will, of necessity, happen again. Perhaps it could, but ....... who knows? Look at my story, and you'll see that this is not necessarily a "given".

b) you don't return the very next day, or that week, etc.... Naturally you "give that park a rest", so-to-speak.

c) you make mental note of what time of day that happened. And if/when you go again (a few months later at a minimum), you go at a different time. For example: if the encounter happened at 4pm, then the next time, you go at 8am. Because odds are, even *IF* a cop were called again, it will be a different one (as they tend to keep the same shifts).

d) If the park is big enough, you make mental note of which end or portion that happened at, and avoid just that one section for awhile. Like perhaps "miss-lookie-lou's" house was right at that particular corner, with her kitchen window looking right down at that particular portion.

e) And quite frankly, you pick better times. I mean, assuming you want to hunt that park bad enough (if it's porking out choice old silver), I've even gotten to where I do some of my favorite parks AT NIGHT. *Not* because there's necessarily any particular rule or law (same as with your park), but ONLY so that no lookie-lou's get their panties in a wad. Kind of like nose-picking: not "illegal", but ... sheesk, we all sort of pick discreet times so as not to offend people, right ? Some people will call this "sneaking around". ok, fine, sneak around.

Knowledge of your area , city , county , etc. laws as well as customs and expectations is crucial for determining whether permission is necessary or atleast a good idea , since those things can vary greatly from place to place. Some places you dont really need to ask permission if you know for certain its considered public and at times its better if you dont ask , ...but in other areas NOT asking permission can get you into trouble.

When it comes to sidewalk strips though , whether legal or not its just bad business and bad manners not to ask permission from the adjacent homeowner first. A few trinkets or coins are not worth stepping all over peoples feet for.

asking permission

I live in NJ, I wanted to search a school by my house. I feel very uncomfortable to hunt a site without asking permission. I am also a retired Superintendent of Grounds for a NJ University. I didn't start metal detecting until after I retired. Let me start by saying if someone asked if they could metal detect on the university property when I was in charge, I would have said no. Most of our property is well manicured lawns and sports fields.Since I have been metal detecting my position has changed, you might say, what a hypocrite. I go on that same property and hunt today. I don't go on the lawns, I only go on areas that are on the outskirts of the property.If you call and ask the person in charge at any school in NJ, most likely they will say no. I talked to the Superintendent of schools in my county and he said that he couldn't give me permission to metal detect. The area that I wanted to detect is woods. He told me it didn't matter it was still the school grounds. He did say he couldn't stop me from going either. So I went, I was stopped by the police. He asked me what was going on, I showed him the machine, CTX. He liked what he say, he was all right with the fact that I was in the woods. He gave me another spot where I could go. It was another school. I asked if it would be OK if I hunted there? He said you're not supposed to hunt hear, so what is the difference? You can take it for what it's worth. Always be polite, and pick up the garbage.
Jim

good post toe-2-short.

shedigz said:

I was under the impression that on parks, schools and curb strips there was no need to ask permission because its public property. But others on other forums seem to disagree.
Do you or don't you need permission?

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The subject of the thread is "When to ask permission"

I think one should NEVER 'ask permission' to MD on PUBLIC lands. If you must ask anything about MDing on Public lands, ask where to find the written ordinances, regulations, and/or laws that address how the PUBLIC land may be utilized. BTW, you will notice I did not include the word RULES in this thought [written or not].

I also think one should ALWAYS ask and obtain permission to MD on PRIVATE property.

This just succinctly summarizes my opinion on "When to ask permission".
If one doesn't know the legal difference between PUBLIC and PRIVATE land ownership...that is a whole 'nother' subject.

good post mountain digger.

I was trying to understand the difference between your avoiding the word "Rule", and prefer instead to seek out the "law" or "regulation". At first glance, the 3 words appear synonymous, eh?

Perhaps you were driving at the differences between things that have a SPECIFIC prohibition (whatever word one chooses to call it: rule, law, regulation, or whatever). Versus things that are more akin to a POLICY. Ie.: interpretation of other things that could be deemed to apply.

So for example, there are laws that forbid "public nuisances" or "annoyances", etc.... They can be invoked/applied, whenever a LEO deems it necessary to usher along someone that is being obnoxioius, garnering complaints, etc.... right ? Is that what you're driving at, is to find specific written laws and codes? Or ... ?

The word RULE

Tom,
The word RULE is often loosely used but is a rather ambiguous word that can mean different things in different contexts to different people.

The reason the word causes some confusion when used in MDing discussions is that a 'rule' may or may not have the full force and effect of law.

Here's an example:

A parks director develops a set of PARK RULES to be posted at all Public Parks in his city. These particular rules may be reasonable, common sense, practical rules based on the Parks Director's knowledge and own set of personal values. Are the rules law?

Possibly, if he went through the necessary procedure to have them made law but probably not if he merely had his signs made and posted by the groundskeeper.

The groundskeeper will enforce a rule that says "NO METAL DETECTING" because his job description says "enforce park rules" and to not do so could result in his unemployment. So, it's easy for him to say 'no' to the request for 'permission' to MD, it's right there on the sign. When asked WHERE this is in the codified laws...no one can find it. If it's not in the cities' ordinances, regs, and laws (which must be written and published), it means it doesn't have the full force and effect of a LAW.

Now take the reverse situation and say the Parks Director took his rules through the necessary steps [to actually become LAW] and what started out as his personal views and beliefs are now codified LAW.

The groundskeeper, who happens to be your fishing buddy says sure...go ahead and MD in the park even though it violates the law. Or, you're special because your neighbor, the Mayor, said it's OK to MD in MY parks. So you do and the LEO (whose job it is to enforce LAW) writes you a citation.

Under the first scenario a MDer has a reasonable defense and the charge would probably be tossed if challenged. BUT, I'd not want to be the MDer in the second scenario.

I tried to be brief. Hope my opinions here are clear to anyone who might read why I believe the word RULE creates confusion in the MDing context.

This is part of the reason why I say: If it's illegal...it's not legal. And if it's legal...it not illegal.

Most municipal workers wear a fluorescent vest to make them more visible to traffic. Note what color they wear and buy one similar and wear it. Probably no one will pat attention to you.

mountain digger, as anyone here knows, I'm the FIRST OUT THERE to "split hairs" at anything that would get me out of a pickle, in order to md my favorite park (not that I'd go out-of-my-way to have the altercation in the first place, doh!).

But your line of logic seems a little non-defensible. Because when you think of it: Even if something is not codified at city hall as a municipal thingy with the "weight of law", yet, let's be quite honest here: Any duly-appointed city employee, tasked with administering some city property (librarians, gardeners, harbor employees, meter readers, etc....) have a certain vested degree of interpretational powers, to get their jobs done.

So while it might seem arbitrary and capricous for some lower level city entity to post a wooden sign declaring such & such, yet, .... they are given that latitude by their superiors. So for example a librarian could announce (and even erect a sign) saying "no chewing gum at library computer consoles". And while that might not be a city law (or something with the power-of-law), yet let's be honest: If you defiantly did it, I don't think that you'd get too far in trying to point out that it's never been "voted on", or "codified in municipal code", and so forth.

Example: I got booted once from a park that I knew full well had no specific prohibition. So I talked with a lawyer friend of mine and said "doesn't there have to be a law that actually said that ?" (otherwise it seemed like he was "making up a law"). The lawyer said that public employees have certain enforcement powers. And their superiors will, no doubt, usually side on their side (lest no one ever wants to be a cop, etc...).

It's an interesting concept. But in actual practice, hard to think of how that would serve as a legal defense.

Rules vs. Laws

Tom,
The original topic was 'when to ask for permission'. I should have realized your previous post and my response to you was getting off-topic but I didn't.

I've sent you a PM.

M-digger, I too got off topic. Delving way too much into the trivial. Sorry 'bout that !

My advice is never ask for permission at a public park, however some parks require permits, so make sure you get one if they are available.

My recommendation is to stop by the park office and see if they have any literature on what is allowed at the park and what is not. If metal detecting is not on the list then have at it. If somebody stops you then show them the list. Asking for permission is a bad idea because it empowers the rabble rousers.

Your own good judgement is your best asset. Don't do anything stupid like swing your detector too close to the patrons, or even worse don't use a big shovel! Don't dig holes in landscaped areas and go when the weather is bad and there are no people around. In other words don't attract attention.

oldie but goodie

yep, yup, and heck yeah......the dig'em lamp is lit......