Dilemma Open to Discussion

ScubaDetective · Apr 25, 2018

I have an issue that has been puzzling me for a while and I was hoping for some input and not ridicule. I know it is ultimately a legal matter and if the scenario played out it would be up to a judge.

HOWEVER, it will NEVER come to THIS CONCLUSION so PLEASE everyone stay civil and if you do give your input realize this is just a hypothetical situation.

In Michigan you are allowed to use deadly force IF you feel your life is in danger. That was emphasized over and over in the CCW class I took. So like a car coming at a police officer the officer feels his life is in danger and he can neutralize the threat.

So I am diving in 4 - 6 foot of water. Boaters have to stay 200' away from a dive flag. I have a huge float with a 2' X 2' flag on it. Boaters have NO clue what that flag is and some have come within 3 foot of me.

I bet most know where this is going. But be patient!

I have come up and touched the prop wash of dinghies who fly right by me because I didn't hear them.

I had an idea that I thought was the answer. Have a paintball gun in my float and shoot the nice white boat with paintballs to get the captains attention.

WRONG. I was told I would be arrested by the state police and the sheriff office.

So, I can legally use deadly force to neutralize the threat because the idiot boaters do not know the laws, and we all know ignorance of the law is no excuse to kill someone. BUT, I cannot use non lethal force to get their attention and give their pretty white boat a few different colors.

Does any of this make sense to anyone? I am sure Tom can help me here!

A boat prop hitting me will kill me. I have already been rolled over by the keel of a snailboat. If it would have hit my neck instead of my tank it would have killed me also.

What has been baffling me is I can legally use deadly force, but I am not allowed to use non lethal force to get their attention.

It is hypothetical because I will NEVER have my gun on me or in my float when I am diving. I just want to make that crystal clear to everyone who might want to attack.

T-Man · Apr 25, 2018

Don't really have an answer for you Scuba but think it would be funny if you surfaced next to them and tossed one of those training bombs into thier boats and then dived back down again without saying a word.

Tom_in_CA · Apr 25, 2018

ScubaDetector said:
.... I am sure Tom can help me here!....

Gee, I wish. But gun, boating, and scuba rules, are outside my soapbox issues.

But since the question involves "guns", you will no doubt get some opinions. Because I've noticed that whenever the subject of CCW, gun-control, packing heat, etc... comes up on an md'ing forum, then there is NO SHORTAGE of people who input. As if we have a bunch of NRA type folks in the ranks of md'ing, haha

Tom_in_CA · Apr 25, 2018

Ok, here's an answer for you scuba : It is your obligation, to go to those boaters who got dangerously close to you. And you must ask them permission to dive and metal detect. After all : You wouldn't want to give our hobby a bad name, would you ?? :laughing:

ChrisMD · Apr 25, 2018

It's been my experience diving for the past two decades that no matter how the law is written, enforcement will always side with boater over the diver in almost all issues that arise.

My group of regular divers would run into this constantly when I lived in Hawaii. The tourist charters would literally ride over our floats and drop anchor on top of us. One outing we had a guy on the shore, higher up on the cliffs at a great angle, record the entire thing and they were caught dead to rights. Yet nothing happened to the charter captain or the company no matter how far up the law enforcement/government flag we ran it.

It's a lost cause as far as I'm concerned, only thing one can do is try to be extra safe and hope for the best in regards to boaters.

achaios · Apr 25, 2018

How about if you carry a bunch of snarled heavy-duty fishing line with you to get in their propellers?

-- Tom

ScubaDetective · Apr 25, 2018

T-Man said:
Don't really have an answer for you Scuba but think it would be funny if you surfaced next to them and tossed one of those training bombs into thier boats and then dived back down again without saying a word.

However, they would probably arrest me for causing a panic!

Tom_in_CA said:
Ok, here's an answer for you scuba : It is your obligation, to go to those boaters who got dangerously close to you. And you must ask them permission to dive and metal detect. After all : You wouldn't want to give our hobby a bad name, would you ??

Good answer. I just have to come up every time I hear one and give them a waterproof permission form to sign so I can keep them on file? :laughing:

ChrisMD said:
It's been my experience diving for the past two decades that no matter how the law is written, enforcement will always side with boater over the diver in almost all issues that arise.

My group of regular divers would run into this constantly when I lived in Hawaii. The tourist charters would literally ride over our floats and drop anchor on top of us. One outing we had a guy on the shore, higher up on the cliffs at a great angle, record the entire thing and they were caught dead to rights. Yet nothing happened to the charter captain or the company no matter how far up the law enforcement/government flag we ran it.

It's a lost cause as far as I'm concerned, only thing one can do is try to be extra safe and hope for the best in regards to boaters.

I have called the sheriff and reported boaters and you are 100% correct. They say they have to actually SEE the boater breaking the law. If I shot and killed a captain, the boat would probably drift over 200' away and I would still be in trouble because I couldn't prove they were within a few feet.

I really agree with you, it is a lost cause. BUT it shouldn't be. I still don't understand WHY I can't legally paint a white boat pretty different colors. It would piss off a captain but he would still be alive to talk about it.

Tom_in_CA · Apr 25, 2018

ChrisMD said:
.... It's been my experience diving for the past two decades that no matter how the law is written, enforcement will always side with boater over the diver in almost all issues that arise..... ...

ChrisMD said:
....... It's a lost cause as far as I'm concerned, ...

Aahh, but Chris, you must not have read some of Scuba's past legal adventures. At first, it was like you said, where the flags are ignored, or he's told he can't detect. But he doesn't tuck his tail between his legs and "give lip service". He got into some legal tussles that were the stuff of Perry Mason. Great reads. But .... stuff that NOT EVEN I would want to debate semantics on, doh!

SoOregonMd · Apr 25, 2018

T-Man said:
Don't really have an answer for you Scuba but think it would be funny if you surfaced next to them and tossed one of those training bombs into thier boats and then dived back down again without saying a word.

This is definitely a dilemma..

not sure exactly what law you would be breaking with the paint ball, probably at worst Assault and at best probably vandalism.

T-Man I think had it right.. maybe wrong method though.
You have to scare the bejesus out of them just like they did to you.

how to do this safely and effectively is the true dilemma.

ScubaDetective · Apr 25, 2018

I do know part of the problem here. When a vehicle is coming at an officer, that is INTENT to do bodily harm and can be argued as such. Deadly force is justified.

A boater not knowing the law doesn't mean he INTENDED to kill me. Just means they are uneducated but they are still culpable.

However ignorance of the law isn't an excuse to kill someone.

Funny how laws are.

In Michigan if you post NO TRESPASSING signs on your property 100' apart and someone trespasses you can have them cited for breaking the law.

If they trespass and get hurt on your property you can be sued and they can win even if you have signs up.

Laws are meant to nail you, no matter what you do.

GKL · Apr 25, 2018

ScubaDetector said:
I have called the sheriff and reported boaters and you are 100% correct. They say they have to actually SEE the boater breaking the law.

I wonder if they made a dash-cam device like they use in cars that would record video from your diver flag buoy if that would be evidence enough for law enforcement to charge a boater with getting too close ?

Of course you might need at least two cameras pointing in opposite directions.

Another addition idea would be to have a powerful strobe light and a loudspeaker repeating a message warning boaters they are being recorded if they get too close.

I was trying to search the web to see if there were any such products available for divers and did not see any but did find these links related to your discussion -

http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/2011-05-27/news/fl-diving-flags-safety-20110527_1_divers-and-boaters-summer-boating-season-florida-fish

https://www.scubaboard.com/community/threads/useless-dive-flag-in-rainbow-river-florida.285767/

https://cartercapner.com.au/blog/moreton-island-boat-skipper-close-fast-run-diver-wins-675k/

Stay safe Scuba !

ScubaDetective · Apr 25, 2018

GKL said:
I wonder if they made a dash-cam device like they use in cars that would record video from your diver flag buoy if that would be evidence enough for law enforcement to charge a boater with getting too close ?

Of course you might need at least two cameras pointing in opposite directions.

Another addition idea would be to have a powerful strobe light and a loudspeaker repeating a message warning boaters they are being recorded if they get too close.

I was trying to search the web to see if there were any such products available for divers and did not see any but did find these links related to your discussion -

http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/2011-05-27/news/fl-diving-flags-safety-20110527_1_divers-and-boaters-summer-boating-season-florida-fish

https://www.scubaboard.com/community/threads/useless-dive-flag-in-rainbow-river-florida.285767/

https://cartercapner.com.au/blog/moreton-island-boat-skipper-close-fast-run-diver-wins-675k/

Stay safe Scuba !

Thank you. Interesting articles. I am mostly safe. One reason I use a CZ machine is it is quiet and I can normally hear boaters. Those rubber dinghies scare me though. They are quiet and fly at full speed through places boaters anchor and folks swim.

I will have to say that MOST of the larger boats idle through swim areas. Hearing them is no problem. Educating them can be as some ignore you.

choppadude · Apr 25, 2018

If you can have a person video your dives and any boats that come within the "off limit" range of your diving flag and they can get the hull numbers from the boat you can then file a complaint and after several instances of people being charged and fined word may get out.
Not sure if this is really any help but just my thoughts.

ScubaDetective · Apr 25, 2018

choppadude said:
If you can have a person video your dives and any boats that come within the "off limit" range of your diving flag and they can get the hull numbers from the boat you can then file a complaint and after several instances of people being charged and fined word may get out.
Not sure if this is really any help but just my thoughts.

It might help. One problem is I am mostly alone and another is who wants to stay on a boat when someone is finding gold? LOL none of my friends anyway.

I have been going out really early in the morning or late at night and never on weekends to keep away from the uneducated. I either go deeper on weekends or I go where no boaters care to play.

I do know it is my responsibility to keep myself safe. This was just intended for a discussion and food for thought for others interested in doing the detecting I enjoy.

zeemang · Apr 25, 2018

I guess I would maybe try a mounted camera on your boat and then put out multiple dive flags which would have to be anchored to the bottom with something prop grabbing between them on a small run of floats, say spectra cord and light chain, for your own safety of course...

ScubaDetective · Apr 25, 2018

zeemang said:
I guess I would maybe try a mounted camera on your boat and then put out multiple dive flags which would have to be anchored to the bottom with something prop grabbing between them on a small run of floats, say spectra cord and light chain, for your own safety of course...

You know, I have thought of that! I have 6 dive floats. I thought about putting them out 200' apart in a square and having floating line connect them all.

Trouble is two fold. I don't really mind if boaters come within 50' of me at a snails pace. I can hear them.

I don't want to hog a swim area and be selfish just because it is my right.

Boaters and divers need to get along and respect each others right to the water.

I wish someone would make a dive flag with the silhouette of a diver in the middle of it, or have DIVER in big letters I can put on my float. They make smaller floats with DIVER on them. Boaters just have to get withing 20 feet to read them! :lol:

Gauntlet · Apr 25, 2018

Have you contacted whoever is in charge of Boating Enforcement in your area to express your concerns? That's where I'd start, let them pass out a few fines, and people will learn quick. Get HID numbers when possible to provide.

Shooting a firearm? Not unless you like the thought of prison. Ditto with paint-balling earning you a fine.

BTW, NRA Life Member

ScubaDetective · Apr 25, 2018

Gauntlet said:
Have you contacted whoever is in charge of Boating Enforcement in your area to express your concerns? That's where I'd start, let them pass out a few fines, and people will learn quick. Get HID numbers when possible to provide.

Shooting a firearm? Not unless you like the thought of prison. Ditto with paint-balling earning you a fine.

BTW, NRA Life Member

Yes, I have talked to the marine division supervisor many times. They know my dilemma. That is why I thought of painting their pretty white boats. Not only would it get their attention. it would be the talk of marina's and word would get around FAST what a dive flag is.

How many rich folks would want to explain their pretty white boat splattered with colors on the way back to their slip? :laughing:

I THOUGHT that was the perfect NON_LETHAL solution. Nobody dies, nobody gets hurt but EVERYONE sees the outcome. Word of what a dive flag is would FLY around all the marina's.

I also agree with you 100% about guns. i just thought it was strange that they NEVER MENTIONED it in the class for a CCW, you had to prove INTENT.

They only mentioned you can use lethal force to neutralize the threat IF you felt your life was in danger.

Grumpa · Apr 25, 2018

I think you hit the nail on the head when you talk about intent. It's very hard to justify lethal force if the intent is not there. However, a police officer is justified in using lethal force because a vehicle is coming at them even if the driver's intent is to escape rather than to kill the officer. I believe this is because of their deliberate disregard for public safety in the commission of a crime.

My initial argument in your case would still have to be intent though. The boaters intent is not to harm you but is purely that of ignorance. Much like a pedestrian in traffic who is hit, or nearly hit, by a driver. I doubt very seriously if a person in a crosswalk would be justified in shooting a soccer mom who did not see the person in the crosswalk. Even if the pedestrian sees the car coming and is in fear of their life. So, if the boaters intent is not to harm you, but your intent is to do damage to their property with your paint balls, I can understand the legal viewpoint.

Another important thing to consider is timing. In a case of justified lethal force you can only shoot to stop a threat on your life. Once the threat no longer exists you cannot use lethal force. For instance a person is coming at you with a knife. At that point you are able to legally use lethal force. But lets say when you pull out your gun that person turns around and starts running away. Now you're not legal to use lethal force because the threat no longer exists. In your paint ball scenario, if the boat is headed for you and you feel your life is in imminent danger you could use any means at your disposal to stop the threat whether it be a pistol, a paint ball gun, or anything else handy. However, once the threat is past, you cannot legally shoot the paint ball gun at them simply to teach them a lesson any more than you could shoot a pistol or anything else.

ScubaDetective · Apr 25, 2018

Very true,

But you do have to admit a million dollar boat splattered in red, black and blue splotches would be the talk of the marina! :laughing:

Every boater would know to stay the heck away and they would learn fast.

No millionaire wants to be ridiculed and laughed at.

Anyway. Thanks all for the answers. There really is none I know.

I just have to protect myself and TRY to stay out of the way of folks with more money than brains.

Dilemma Open to Discussion

ScubaDetective

In Memory Of

T-Man

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Tom_in_CA

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Tom_in_CA

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ChrisMD

achaios

ScubaDetective

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Tom_in_CA

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SoOregonMd

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ScubaDetective

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GKL

ScubaDetective

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choppadude

ScubaDetective

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zeemang

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Gauntlet

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Grumpa

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