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50 Thousand Dollar Ethics Question

ScubaDetective

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Interesting question for all. Would like ALL input but I understand it is completely my decision.

For those that read the beach and water section I have a new truck. Picked it up yesterday. That is the good news. The bad news is the DEALER LIED in order for me to get it. I know time to explain.

I told them to run the loan through my credit union. They did. It was DECLINED. My credit is 766. 100% on time and paid. However, I own a home in Michigan outright and I just bought a 90 thousand dollar home in Utah for a daughter. On top that I have three car loans and two personal loans, and over 10 credit cards, because I am helping some of my daughters. All of this is in my name. I told the dealer my income and my credit union got the information and said I was over extended. I understood and was going to wait till my daughters and I paid off a few things.

However the dealer called me back and said they got me approved with another credit union. I thought great and said bring the truck up from Ohio. They got it, I went and looked at it and told them I would buy it. So far all is good. Here it comes.

in signing ALL the paperwork they gave me a paper stating my income. They had my income at 6900.00 a month. WRONG. My income is 3645.00 a month. I told them it was wrong and the salesman went back to the finance manager. I went outside to talk to my friend and I was thinking the deal was off.

The salesman came back and said come and sign the rest of the papers. They corrected the paper and I signed the rest of them and drove off with my new ride. Told me the finance manager had fat fingers.

I go diving and my neck is hurting very bad and have to quit. I am laying in the boat thinking about the transaction. I decided to call the credit union that approved me. Talked to a very nice lady that is a loan manager. I told her the story. She took my information down and looked up my loan. They approved it only because my income was stated at 6900.00 a month. She said I possibly committed fraud. I said NO, I told the dealer the truth. I found out the dealer didn't contact the credit union after he changed the paperwork to the right numbers. It even gets worse than that.

So the credit union told me they have to contact their legal department. This was last night. Today I go to my credit union to ask what numbers the dealer gave them. They gave them my correct income at 3645.00 a month. So now I know after my credit union declined the loan, the dealer inflated my income to push the loan through the other credit union. BOGUS.

I know there is absolutely no buyers remorse. I can't take the truck back, however the credit union stated they can still decline the loan since it was gotten by fraud by the dealer. I don't need the truck. My 2008 Avalanche works just fine. I don't believe in getting anything under false pretenses. The credit union did say I have the decision to make.

My feeling is SCREW the dealer. IF they had done this to someone that really needed a vehicle and they couldn't afford it, the vehicle would sooner or later be repossessed. The dealer can't sell the truck as new anymore since it was registered and I don't want them getting away with fraud. I do have a copy of the right paperwork which I signed. Oh and one last thing. On the dealers paperwork the page you sign does NOT have your income on it. Your income is on the first page which has no room for a signature or initials. Another BIG NO in anyone's eyes. When I bought my daughters house I had to initial or sign every single page.

My second thought is keep it if the credit union lets me since I know I can make the payments. It just doesn't seem right to me though. More trucks are out there and I can wait till my Avalanche is paid off and my daughters credit is high enough her vehicles, credit cards, and house can go in their names and not show on my credit.

I know this is long and luckily I saw the mistake BEFORE I signed. The dealer not calling the credit union AFTER they supposedly had fat fingers tells me it was done on purpose to sell a new vehicle.

The whole thing STINKS in my eyes and I want no part of the dealers scheme.

Sorry so long. I hope I was clearer than mud.
 
You made it perfectly clear what your income is to the loan people and the dealership changed the document.
Sounds to me like the dealership committed fraud, not you.
 
You might be a little too hard on the dealer. There's just a lot of rules out there. Maybe too many. You can afford the truck. Dealer wants to sell you one. He bent a few rules. You got what you wanted. He got what he wanted. No harm, no foul.
 
You made it perfectly clear what your income is to the loan people and the dealership changed the document.
Sounds to me like the dealership committed fraud, not you.

I totally understand that. Now the credit union can let me keep the truck or decline the loan. If they decline the loan I will probably have to give it back.

The credit union said that I HAD A DECISION TO MAKE. I think they will let me keep it from how she worded it. However I can tell them to decline the loan and who knows what happens then. I really want to screw the dealer over so they don't hurt someone else. If I tell the credit union to decline the loan which they might do anyway, the dealer is SCREWED. Not me. I put the plate back on my Avalanche and the deal is off. Nobody can come back after me.

I am just a bit torn on how to proceed. The dealer needs to pay in my opinion.
 
You might be a little too hard on the dealer. There's just a lot of rules out there. Maybe too many. You can afford the truck. Dealer wants to sell you one. He bent a few rules. You got what you wanted. He got what he wanted. No harm, no foul.

Thank you. I understand that. But what about folks that can't afford it and sign bogus paperwork? That is what happened with the housing crisis. People were allowed to STATE their income. Look what happened. All the foreclosures. Now it looks like they are getting away with it with vehicles that cost as much as a house.

I really appreciate EVERYONE'S input.

I think this is a good topic and can turn into a great learning thread. I think I know what I am going to do. I will save that till after I do it.
 
You said it very well yourself when you said - "I don't believe in getting anything under false pretenses."
and also "The whole thing STINKS in my eyes and I want no part of the dealers scheme."

I would get out of that deal ASAP as it would not only prove to your credit union you were never in on it AND I think you would sleep much better afterwards knowing you did the right thing to not be associated with the dealer's willingness to commit fraud.
 
You have multiple problems.

If the Credit Union refuses the loan, you are clean, in so far as you didn't sign the paper showing the incorrect income. However, if you read the small print in your purchase contract, there is, most likely, nothing there stating your purchase is contingent upon the dealer getting you the loan. So, you own the truck.

It gets even messier. The Credit Union recorded a lien on your vehicle registration with your DMV, so you can't get a clean pink slip to sell the vehicle until their loan is paid back.

A key question is wether the dealer already got the money from the CU. Now, the CU can't just simply cancel the loan and demand the money back from the dealer. Fat chance the dealer would give them back the money.

In the best case, he CU could decide to let the loan stand and you make payments.

Or, they could cancel the loan based on the fraudulent information and demand payment in full. If that fails, they could repo the truck and take you and the dealer to court to recover the rest, file for garnishment of wages, or file a lien against you. This would work wonders on your credit rating.

My advice is, spend a few bucks and talk to an attorney and have him write a letter to the dealership General Manager and the CU and put forth your preferred settlement of this mess.
 
Obviously, this entire situation is bothering you, or you would not have brought it to the Forum for opinions.

In KT's mind, you need to not worry about who was wrong or right in this situation. If this is morally disturbing to you, then you have to let your personal morals guide you. Even though you caught the dealership in a fraudulent act, if you let it continue, IMHO, you are allowing the fraud to be completed. To His Majesty, it would seem best to send it back and be shed of the concern.

But KT does not judge you or your decision concerning it. Whatever you do lies on your shoulders.
 
You said it very well yourself when you said - "I don't believe in getting anything under false pretenses."
and also "The whole thing STINKS in my eyes and I want no part of the dealers scheme."

I would get out of that deal ASAP as it would not only prove to your credit union you were never in on it AND I think you would sleep much better afterwards knowing you did the right thing to not be associated with the dealer's willingness to commit fraud.

Thanks for your comment. I did prove to them I was not in on it. I copied and emailed the papers I have and I signed. They know 100% positive it was all the dealers doing.

Really folks I have been pondering this issue all day and all evening last night.

So lets say the dealer had FAT FINGERS. I could accept that IF they didn't tell my main credit union the truth, AND if they would have called the credit union that did approve the loan AFTER I told them the paperwork was wrong and the credit union still approved it.

They fixed it and notified nobody. All they did was fix the paperwork and didn't tell anyone. I signed correct paperwork.
 
Obviously, this entire situation is bothering you, or you would not have brought it to the Forum for opinions.

In KT's mind, you need to not worry about who was wrong or right in this situation. If this is morally disturbing to you, then you have to let your personal morals guide you. Even though you caught the dealership in a fraudulent act, if you let it continue, IMHO, you are allowing the fraud to be completed. To His Majesty, it would seem best to send it back and be shed of the concern.

But KT does not judge you or your decision concerning it. Whatever you do lies on your shoulders.

Understand and thank you. I might not have a choice after the credit unions legal department gets a hold of it. However I might still as she did say I have a decision to make.

My problem is if they get away with it, they will keep on doing it and hurting people like the housing crisis hurt many many folks.
 
Thanks for your comment. I did prove to them I was not in on it. I copied and emailed the papers I have and I signed. They know 100% positive it was all the dealers doing.

Really folks I have been pondering this issue all day and all evening last night.

So lets say the dealer had FAT FINGERS. I could accept that IF they didn't tell my main credit union the truth, AND if they would have called the credit union that did approve the loan AFTER I told them the paperwork was wrong and the credit union still approved it.

They fixed it and notified nobody. All they did was fix the paperwork and didn't tell anyone. I signed correct paperwork.

After doing a quick scan of the links below I tend to think that it was not a big surprise to your credit union that the dealer committed fraud -

from the link below -
"We often see clients come in who we wonder how they qualified for the loan to buy the car. We have learned that it is because the dealer finance personnel provide false data to the finance company."

http://www.georgiaconsumerlawyer.com/consumer-lawyers/falsifying-credit-information-crime/

from the link below -
"Some dealerships commit fraud by changing the consumer's information."

http://www.consumerlawgroup.com/blog/2014/09/games-dealers-play-credit-application-fraud.shtml

from the link below -
"According to the Federal Trade Commission (FTC), "there have been reports that some dealers inflate ... income information for the financing without (the borrower's) knowledge."

https://www.autocreditexpress.com/blog/overstating-income-with-problem-credit/

I'm not sure what state you are in but maybe you could find a web site for your state that covers such actions committed by dealers.
 
You have multiple problems.

If the Credit Union refuses the loan, you are clean, in so far as you didn't sign the paper showing the incorrect income. However, if you read the small print in your purchase contract, there is, most likely, nothing there stating your purchase is contingent upon the dealer getting you the loan. So, you own the truck.

It gets even messier. The Credit Union recorded a lien on your vehicle registration with your DMV, so you can't get a clean pink slip to sell the vehicle until their loan is paid back.

A key question is wether the dealer already got the money from the CU. Now, the CU can't just simply cancel the loan and demand the money back from the dealer. Fat chance the dealer would give them back the money.

In the best case, he CU could decide to let the loan stand and you make payments.

Or, they could cancel the loan based on the fraudulent information and demand payment in full. If that fails, they could repo the truck and take you and the dealer to court to recover the rest, file for garnishment of wages, or file a lien against you. This would work wonders on your credit rating.

My advice is, spend a few bucks and talk to an attorney and have him write a letter to the dealership General Manager and the CU and put forth your preferred settlement of this mess.

Thank you Rudy. The credit union hasn't financed it yet. I just signed the papers and got the truck yesterday. I NEVER signed the fraudulent paper. Actually there is NO PLACE to sign the fraudulent one. You sign the SECOND PAGE. I have a copy of the first and second page and the first page has the RIGHT NUMBERS.

They know I am 100% faultless on this whole thing. They told me they haven't received the paperwork from the dealer yet. I am so GLAD I read most the paperwork.

I do agree contact a lawyer and see what they say. The two I called today were out and I can't talk to one till Monday.

Right now my thought is to ask the credit union to decline the loan, let them tell the dealer and see what transpires.

The comments have really been insightful. I am thinking along the lines of most of you.

Thank you for the links GKL. Very informative. I can see used car dealers doing this cwap but not brand new cars and a trusted dealership. This might be newsworthy in this one horse town.
 
Scuba, the housing crisis was caused by the fed forcing banks to approve loans that they knew couldn't be paid. The only reason the banks did it was because those loans were guaranteed by the fed themselves and the gov't made them do it through policy. In 2008, 19 million homes went into foreclosure, 12 million of those were owned by Fannie and Freddie Mac (the gov't).

While I hate to see the dealership get away with this, they're probably not able to do it to most people. You have fantastic credit, which was one of the only reasons they were able to get away with it in your circumstance. Most loans require income verification, but I bet the credit union took it at face value - based on your excellent credit score/history.

What's most important here is do you like the truck? Can you afford the truck? Do you want to keep the truck?

As far as the dealer getting theirs, they will and it starts by never shopping there again if you don't like how they handled the deal.
 
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Scuba, the housing crisis was caused by the fed forcing banks to approve loans that they knew couldn't be paid. The only reason the banks did it was because those loans were guaranteed by the fed themselves and the gov't made them do it. 19 million homes went into foreclosure, 12 million of those were owned by Fannie and Freddie Mac (the gov't).

While I hate to see the dealership get away with this, they're probably not able to do it to most people. You have fantastic credit, which was one of the only reasons they were able to get away with it in your circumstance. Most loans require income verification, but I bet the credit union took it at face value - based on your excellent credit score/history.

What's most important here is do you like the truck? Can you afford the truck? Do you want to keep the truck?

As far as the dealer getting theirs, they will and it starts by never shopping there again if you don't like how they handled the deal.

The answers to your questions is yes I like the truck, yes I can afford to keep it and the last one is questionable. In a big way I want to keep it. In another big way I want the dealer to pay for what they did. I am totally honest in all my dealings and I want no part in their schemes. My credit union and the loan manager at the new credit union both know I am blameless in this whole transaction. I went to mine today to get the numbers that the dealership gave them and they were 100% correct. They agree that after I was declined only for debt to income ratio that the dealer did this on purpose. And the dealer not informing the new credit union after I caught them just really irks me.

My Avalanche is fine. I wanted to take it to Utah and park it so I can fly there and have my own toy waiting for me. Also have a back up vehicle for my 6 sponges in case one of theirs dies and they call me to rescue them.

I can easily wait for my sponges to fix their credit and put things in their name so my debt to income ratio looks great. Yes I like the truck. I don't need the truck. I can easily wait to buy a 2018 model next fall.
 
Well, a guilty conscience can weigh heavy sometimes even when it isn't our own doing. You have to do what feels right and to me that looks like making sure the credit union has the correct information and see what options are available from there. Doubtful the dealership will try to voluntarily work anything out (slimeballs) without tying it up for many months to come or even threatening litigation (all that fine print delays things and rights), but ultimately I think you'd prevail (but at what cost/time to you trying to protect others?).

Forget the dealership for now, talk to the credit union and see what options you have first. Being fully responsible for the loan in full immediately upon declining the loan is not an option, since the dealer fudged the original numbers.
 
If they decide to finance the truck and let you keep it then you have nothing to worry about , other than possible debt to income numbers that could keep you from getting any more credit if you should need it. It don't sound like you were a willing participant in any deception so I wouldn't feel bad about it. Dealerships play games with numbers all the time to sell cars , its not the first and it wont be the last.
 
Take it back, I don't like dealing with crooks, which in my opinion is what the dealer has shown themselves to be. Give yourself 6 months or so and you can get one from an honest dealer. Just my opinion.
 
I hope your neck pain goes away SD......I know you can deal with a lot of stress from your past experiences in Life, but who needs this piled on to a guy? I have no advice... just sending you best wishes for a positive outcome for you...
 
Thank you. I understand that. But what about folks that can't afford it and sign bogus paperwork? That is what happened with the housing crisis. People were allowed to STATE their income. Look what happened. All the foreclosures. Now it looks like they are getting away with it with vehicles that cost as much as a house.

I really appreciate EVERYONE'S input.

I think this is a good topic and can turn into a great learning thread. I think I know what I am going to do. I will save that till after I do it.
According to an article in "The Week", they are saying that the number of people buying second homes and people trying to make money as real estate went sky high is what caused the problem and not so much people buying out of their league. Their words ,not mine.
 
You might be a little too hard on the dealer. There's just a lot of rules out there. Maybe too many. You can afford the truck. Dealer wants to sell you one. He bent a few rules. You got what you wanted. He got what he wanted. No harm, no foul.

And this is how we got the real estate crash...

A friend of mine is a loan officer and I heard a LOT about this type of thing happening which is why people got loans that they couldn't really afford, or houses that they couldn't sell when their incomer changed for the worse.

On to the OP, I would totally take the truck back and make the dealership eat the loss. In this case you can afford the car, but what about the person who can't and they fudge their numbers?

BCD
 
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