Finder’s Keepers?

So let me understand this : The hoard was found on Church land (private property), presumably with permission. And .... like the UK : The finder and the land-owner split the proceeds. Since the "crown" (the "queen") in those countries owns the wealth under the ground (oil, minerals, caches, etc....) .

As for the insipid comment :

" ... we do not encourage metal detecting on Church land unless detailed arrangements have been agreed beforehand with the General Trustees... "



That is just a run of the mill spouting off by a purist archie, who was no doubt asked to comment on the case. Well gee, what do you expect ? Archies *bristle* at the thought of md'ing. So OF COURSE they're going to say something stupid like that. That is in no way a "bad reflection" on md'rs. Unless, of course, you're of the archaeological mindset.

The other thing this points out is the oft-misunderstood outcome of those laws there. Some USA md'rs seem to think that the rules of "getting a pay-out of market value", blah blah, is a GOOD thing. And they figure that the USA should implement something similar.

But no, as you can see, it's fraught with problems. And here in the USA, if you find a cache on farmer Bob's or a church's land, then it's TOTALLY BETWEEN YOU AND FARMER BOB what you do with it. You can sell it for what you want. Why would anyone want the govt. involved ??

I think the reason that some USA md'rs "wax romantic" about the systems over there, is they think it's some sort of "carte-blanche" or "love-dove hand-holding" between archies and md'rs. Nothing can be further from the truth. Over there, there is SCORES of public places (just like here) that you can't md. They too have sensitive monument places that, like here, you can't md at. Their laws do not "magically open up" cool spots. On the contrary, they do nothing but meddle into the affairs of things like this cache story shows.

Tom, Scotland ain’t England. The Laws of Scotland apply. As I posted, per Scottish law, the reward goes 100% to the finder.

The landowner - The Church of Scotland - claims to have a written agreement to split the finder’s fee and that the finder has breached that agreement. Hence the suit.

As far as the “spouting off” goes, the quote you cited is from the LANDOWNER - the Church of Scotland”, not some archaeologist.

Insteresting enough, many states in the US also hold that buried treasure belongs to the finder and not the property owner (unless the finder was trespassing). The treasure is “ownerless” and not automatically the land/property owner in those states.

lytle78 said:

Tom, Scotland ain’t England. The Laws of Scotland apply. As I posted, per Scottish law, the reward goes 100% to the finder.

The landowner - The Church of Scotland - claims to have a written agreement to split the finder’s fee and that the finder has breached that agreement. Hence the suit.

As far as the “spouting off” goes, the quote you cited is from the LANDOWNER - the Church of Scotland”, not some archaeologist.

Insteresting enough, many states in the US also hold that buried treasure belongs to the finder and not the property owner (unless the finder was trespassing). The treasure is “ownerless” and not automatically the land/property owner in those states.

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Unless you find it on government land then they will seize it.

lytle78 said:

Tom, Scotland ain’t England. The Laws of Scotland apply....

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Of course. But the laws of each are similar. Namely: The "crown" owns the wealth that's under the soil. And supposedly the finder is given fair-market value. So I was commenting on the system itself, and using the UK as another example of that, since it's quite similar to Scotland.

lytle78 said:

.... As far as the “spouting off” goes, the quote you cited is from the LANDOWNER - the Church of Scotland”, not some archaeologist....

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Ah, ok. I wonder if they were influenced though, by an archaeological mindset.

lytle78 said:

.... Insteresting enough, many states in the US also hold that buried treasure belongs to the finder and not the property owner (unless the finder was trespassing). The treasure is “ownerless” and not automatically the land/property owner in those states.

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Yes. Interesting that you point that out. There was a famous legal-precedent case, where some boys, playing hide & seek, found a jar of gold coins (if I recall) hidden in the cellar of their skid row run down tenement housing . The landlord got wind of it, and said it belonged to him. After all, it was found on his property.

The courts got involved. It was obvious these had been stashed decades and decades earlier, even before this current slumlord had owned the block of low-income flats.

In the end, you're right : They boys got to keep it (after tons of lawyers $$ was spent, doh!). Strange, eh ? You own a property fair and square. You *assume* anything on it or under it is "yours", right ? Not a visitors, not a renters, etc.... But yes: That made for an interesting legal twist that could come into play for md'ing.

CarsonChris said:

Unless you find it on government land then they will seize it.

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Yes. This would fall under minutia about "remove", "harvest" and "collect". Such that "features" on all govt. owned beaches, parks, forests, deserts, are all owned by the administering agency. And yes, that would include coins, caches, etc.....

A law that every single one of us md'rs routinely violates. And quite frankly, no one cares or connects-the-dots. Such language was implemented so that no one thinks he can back up his dump truck and start commercially harvesting sand, etc.... Or take home the park benches, etc...

But *technically* it can apply to your grade school daughter taking home seashells from the beach, and coin taken by the md'r.

I know that everyone here is extremely grief-stricken now, right ?

From the 2nd link in the OP - " It is said Mr McLennan, a retired businessman from Ayr, made a written agreement at the time to give the church half the value of his bounty. "

The article doesn't say who said there was an agreement for half the value to the Church. Maybe there was and maybe there wasn't such an agreement. ++++

I heard Mr Ayr gave his share in the collection plate!

Unless you find it on government land then they will seize it.

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Yup, NEVER go to the FBI if you find Civil War era gold bars! They will take it from you and you'll have nothing to show for it! Not even one photo of those 280 gold bars to prove you actually found it. Lol!

FreeBirdTim said:

Yup, NEVER go to the FBI if you find Civil War era gold bars! They will take it from you and you'll have nothing to show for it! ....

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But on the other hand, if you haven't found a treasure of "civil war gold bars", then this is the perfect cover story : "Durned those govt. FBI G-men who came and stole my gold bars during the night !"

I have talked to several European detectorists and it seems to me that having a find that has to be turned in or having one bought by a museum is a bucket-lister, or a badge of honor for many. None of the detectorists I have spoken to have had to turn a find in, but they know someone who has and they all hoped to find something that required consideration. All of them supported the "scheme" as they called it.

I would support something similar here in the good ol' U.S.A., especially for public land finds, but I don't think we have enough history in the ground for it to be common place. I doubt that there are more than a couple dozen finds a year the Smithsonian would be interested in paying fair market value for.

Scooterjim said:

I have talked to several European detectorists and it seems to me that having a find that has to be turned in or having one bought by a museum is a bucket-lister, or a badge of honor for many. None of the detectorists I have spoken to have had to turn a find in, but they know someone who has and they all hoped to find something that required consideration. All of them supported the "scheme" as they called it.

I would support something similar here in the good ol' U.S.A., especially for public land finds, but I don't think we have enough history in the ground for it to be common place. I doubt that there are more than a couple dozen finds a year the Smithsonian would be interested in paying fair market value for.

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Scooter-Jim, Let's clarify a few things :

1) singular coins there (even rare/valuable ones) and the like, do not have to be declared or turned in or sold to the govt. Only the big ticket caches, or something spectacular/historic/valuable. That's why you say that many of the md'rs have not had to "turn in stuff".

2) You list, as an advantage-to-the-system, that there's a badge of honor that comes with it. Well sure, that's nothing other than the similar show & tell we always do on forums, that comes with the atteboys, the respect, the accolades, etc.... Sure, and who doesn't relish that ? I get it. But ....

3) The "scheme" is rooted in a much older rooting, that has nothing to do with md'ing. And this "rooting" is not the same in USA law. Namely: That the wealth under the ground belongs to the govt. (eg. Minerals, oil, etc...). So for example : If you strike oil on your own private land here in the USA (think "Beverly Hillbillies"), you're rich, right ? You own that oil, right ? You can do what you want with it, right ? But in those countries, under the "scheme", that oil belongs to the crown. Oh sure, you might get recompensed. But you are at the mercy of what the crown deems it to be worth. You don't do your own marketing selling, etc... (or in the case of a treasure, simply elect to keep it and never sell, etc...)

4) And if EVER any such "scheme" were suggested to any USA bureaucrats, then: Trust me, it would go downhill in a heartbeat. The average USA archie would BRISTLE at the thought of yahoos going out and digging up the past. The system would immediately be beset with silly rules and hoops.

For example, consider the various places (although rare), in the USA that ever dreamed up "permits". While you may think "permit" is wonderful (conjurs up images of detecting nilly-willy, eh ?), yet when you look closer at any place that ever dreamed up such a thing here, you begin to see the sillyness creep in. Eg.: "Can't dig with 20 ft of any tree", or "report all finds to city hall", or "yes but you can't keep anything" or "digger tool shall not exceed 3 inches in length", blah blah blah.

The LAST thing we want here in the USA, is ANYTHING that involves the govt. into our md'ing hobby. The LESS they think of us, the better.

Here in the USA: If you find a cache on farmer Bob's land, then it's totally between you and farmer Bob how to split or sell it. What's not to love about that system ? And as for accolades, sheesk, post pix on md'ing "finds" forums, and you'll get all sorts of fellow-hobbyist feed back, high 5's, etc...

The UK type system is very misunderstood by USA md'rs. It does NOT magically open up off-limits places either. They have scores of sensitive monuments stuff and public land that .... just like here ... is off-limits. So it is NOT some sort of "carte-blanche" for md'ing.

Tom, I think it would happen so seldom that it's a moot point, but something of such great historical value that the Smithsonian would pay fair market value for it, found on public land is different than the silver and gold coins we are hoping to find. I have seen historical artifacts in private collections and often think that belongs in a museum, most times the museums don't want it, but if the Smithsonian wants it you really have something. I think there is an argument to be made that finds on public lands could be considered to belong to the public, just like the fish and game and fauna belong to us all, but you can harvest it as long as you follow basic laws. I'm all for finders keepers being part of that law, but there are and should be rules related to historical significance not value. There isn't much historical significance to a cache of gold bars. One gold bar is pretty much the same as another.

I would love to find anything any museum would be interested in, but until the wheat penny museum opens I don't see it happening.

Scooterjim said:

Tom, I think it would happen so seldom that it's a moot point, but something of such great historical value that the Smithsonian would pay fair market value for it, found on public land is different than the silver and gold coins we are hoping to find. I have seen historical artifacts in private collections and often think that belongs in a museum, most times the museums don't want it, but if the Smithsonian wants it you really have something. I think there is an argument to be made that finds on public lands could be considered to belong to the public, just like the fish and game and fauna belong to us all, but you can harvest it as long as you follow basic laws. I'm all for finders keepers being part of that law, but there are and should be rules related to historical significance not value. There isn't much historical significance to a cache of gold bars. One gold bar is pretty much the same as another.

I would love to find anything any museum would be interested in, but until the wheat penny museum opens I don't see it happening.

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1) There's nothing to stop anyone right now, who finds a great historically awesome find, on either public or private land, from donating it to the Smithsonian.

2) There's nothing to stop anyone right now, who finds a great historically awesome find, on either public or private land, from offering it for sale, to the Smithsonian.

So everything you're lamenting, that you think the UK system can solve, is ALREADY navigable right here. Oh sure, it's not *forced*, like it is over there ... sure ....

But the moment anyone would suggest legislation (that looks like the UK system) to solve the problem that you allude to, is the moment that ... trust me .... it will end up hurting our hobby. Not helping. By the time it's all done, there will be all sort of rules that will end up NOT being like the UK system. The USA *doesn't* own the wealth under the ground, like the UK crown system.

And the moment you draw in any inevitable input from Archies (who would no doubt need to be consulted for the drafting of the legislation) is the moment you can BET that all sorts of sillyness will creep in. Because remember : Most archies (the purist ones anyhow) BRISTLE at the thought of md'ing. The UK system "scheme" was born out of necessity, d/t their private property system is different, in the first place.

And also, as a museum worker at 2 different museums myself: I can tell you that .... yes .... while it's a shame that a few privately held relics or caches aren't in museums , yet .... The vast majority of stuff given to museums (whether by force, or donation) never see the light of day. There's simply not the display space and the personnel to be perpetually cataloging new stuff, changing out displays, etc.....

All I can say is, any thought about trying to implement a system here, like the UK, would just be opening a can of worms. Yes it'd be nice to see a few privately held things in museums. But as I say: The museums here are ALREADY besieged with donations from well-meaning citizens.

For example, it's gotten to the point where, at one museum I work at, that each intended item has to be evaluated by the head curator. Who will say "no thankyou" unless it's something on par with the Holy Grail. And this actually "insults" some sincere citizens who come in trying to donate things. Ie.: they think grandma's sewing machine needs to be front and center, blah blah

As an example of how the USA voluntary system is working, to satisfy the "itch" that you lament :

There is ... right now ... on displays at many many museums nation-wide : Things that md'rs find here in the USA. Just like you yourself wish you had something worthy to be on display at a museum (and would gladly donate it, if you found such a thing), is equally true of most of us in this hobby. Lots of md'rs have donated things that .... yes .... make it to display.

For example : I have things, in several museums in CA at this time. Including one of the two museums that I work at (some reales and a phoenix button). And at another museum I docent at, is 2 cannon balls and a cannon muzzle tip, found by local md'rs who donated them.

So as you can see, the system doesn't have to be "forced", to work. Oh sure, it's not a perfect system, to ensure that .... heaven forbid some md'r dude keeps something cool in his own collection. But the downsides of trying a "forced" system will outweigh any benefits, by the time it's all done.

kinda off the main subject of UK but here is something about the US state laws.

Treasure Trove Rule

The treasure trove rule dictates that a treasure trove belongs to the finder. Courts distinguish a treasure trove from other mislaid property as refined gold and silver, or paper money buried or otherwise hidden or concealed. Treasure troves aren't only found underground. Courts have ruled that treasure troves can be hidden in airplanes, safes, and even mattresses.

Currently, not all states recognize this rule. The treasure trove doctrine has been recognized in only Arkansas, Connecticut, Delaware, Georgia, Indiana, Iowa, Maine, Maryland, New York, Ohio, Oregon, and Wisconsin.

In Tennessee and Idaho, the treasure trove belongs to the landowner instead of the finder. These states did not want to reward a trespasser with money he found on someone else's land.

Also in the UK you must report your finds to the local Finds Liaison Officer in each district. It is a good job to be a FLO in the UK. No experience necessary and you are paid about $36,000 per year. Don't you just love socialism?

I think Tom (_in_CA) is the CA FLO.

maxxkatt said:

.... here is something about the US state laws.

Treasure Trove Rule

The treasure trove rule dictates that a treasure trove belongs to the finder. .....

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And why oh why oh why would any md'r want it any different ?? So that your stuff gets "into a museum" ? Fine then: Donate or sell it to a museum !

maxxkatt said:

... I think Tom (_in_CA) is the CA FLO.

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Correct. Everyone in CA : Just send me all your stuff. I will absolve your conscience of all guilt. And make sure your "ill-gotten-greedy stuff" goes through the correct channels. Ok ?

Finders keepers......when you don't abide by the law of the land. (England & Wales)

https://www.countytimes.co.uk/news/...ko0MYlYuxMV0NFz3Qrk5PduVD2KfZpSeekuEVmpkGHIDk

Doug said:

Finders keepers......when you don't abide by the law of the land. (England & Wales)

https://www.countytimes.co.uk/news/...ko0MYlYuxMV0NFz3Qrk5PduVD2KfZpSeekuEVmpkGHIDk

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Thanks for the link Doug!

Since you live and hunt there, you would know more about this than most here.

SeabeeRon said:

Thanks for the link Doug! ....

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Ditto. And All the more reason not to wish for those type of laws.