White's Surf PI or Minelab Excalibur II ?
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InShepherdsArms
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Compass
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That looks like the coil on my 1st PI Pro and yes, it was fine for the salt-water
but wants to float. My current PI Pro has a yellow, neutral buoyancy coil and it works well but seems a little heavier when not submerged.
InShepherdsArms
Elite Member
Ok thanks
The “holy grail” of surf and wet beach machines would be a waterproof PI machine with iron ID. Sadly, no manufacturer has ever fielded one of these. Fisher however has confirmed that they have acquired the Manta design from its creator - Alexandre Tartar of France. Alexandre is now a First Texas (Fisher, Teknetics, etc.) employee. The Manta prototypes have demonstrated a useful level of iron id/exclusion at full depth on salt beaches.
When will a machine reach the market? Who knows, but now at least there is real hope that the ultimate beach machine may emerge. Here’s a link to a video (in French) of a Manta prototype being tested. It shows iron ID, black sand penetration with target detection and some ability to “see through” iron.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=G8sdp4RG73g&feature=youtu.be
When will a machine reach the market? Who knows, but now at least there is real hope that the ultimate beach machine may emerge. Here’s a link to a video (in French) of a Manta prototype being tested. It shows iron ID, black sand penetration with target detection and some ability to “see through” iron.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=G8sdp4RG73g&feature=youtu.be
Compass
Forum Supporter
Thank you! That was a very impressive video. It looks like we are all going to soon benefit from these technological advances. A detector that would cut through the black sand and still get depth and discrimination would be a real game-changer.
InShepherdsArms
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Beachhunter
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Impressive! And he now works for First Texas? I'm sure FT will be going head to head with Minelab with that detector.
Tom_in_CA
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I hate to be a debbie-downer kill-joy, but I'm betting there's some un-seen "gotcha" with that.
So too did machines like the TDI .... with some off-set-tuning and audio tricks : Seemed to have the ability to reject iron and tell high-from-low conductors. However, the devil was in the details: The moment you went to implement any of that , you could kiss the fabled pulse depth goodbye. The resulting depth was no more than you could get from a standard machine. Hence .... why bother ?
I realize the guy in the video went to great lengths to cover all bases of possible "gotchas". But .... somehow I still wonder if .... when in actual field conditions, there's going to be "gotchas".
Time will tell.
First Texas has rebuilt the derelict Fisher line - brought Teknetics and Bounty Hunter back from the dead. They did all this with in-house talent.
Now they break new ground - shell out what were probably big bucks to do an "Aquihire" (where you buy the company to get the tech and the people) of Alexandre Tartar and the Manta Project. I doubt seriously that with the like of Carl Moreland and Dave Johnson in their engineering leadership - that they bought "a pig in a poke".
You are right - no PI detector up to now has managed to do either of the things I'm hoping for - the two things which - if accomplished - will unlock the salt beach "Davey Jones Locker" of gold too small for any current detector to detect.These things are:
1. reliable iron id/discrimination to good depth - you are absolutely correct on how the TDI lost depth to get iron ID.
2. Run smoothly at sub 10 microseconds pulse delay in the surf - this has never been done before as far as I know
these guys claim both and demonstrate it with a prototype in video.
Will Fisher's eventual production machine achieve these two goals?
Heck - I don't know, but I strongly suspect that it will.
How did they do it - well if it were Minelab, they would draw al lot of impressive artwork graphs to explain that it was really wonderfully complicated and only they could have done it - while never actually sharing any technical details.
Judging by Fisher's history, I suspect that they will say very little. either it will work and blow our sox off - or it will never see the light of day. If it does work, I suspect that they will not make up wonderful stories about how it works, just say - hey look - this kicks butt!
OK - end of my rant.
Your comments were entirely warranted - I just am optimistic that the future might be just around the corner - at least at the beach.
If this thing actually emerges and does what I hope it will do - I plan to get one and go on safari!
for more detail on what I am talking about about unlocking the undetectable small gold at the beach - google "NASA CZ owner - Salt training 101" - I'd post the link, but don't want to break the rules.
First Texas has rebuilt the derelict Fisher line - brought Teknetics and Bounty Hunter back from the dead. They did all this with in-house talent.
Now they break new ground - shell out what were probably big bucks to do an "Aquihire" (where you buy the company to get the tech and the people) of Alexandre Tartar and the Manta Project. I doubt seriously that with the like of Carl Moreland and Dave Johnson in their engineering leadership - that they bought "a pig in a poke".
You are right - no PI detector up to now has managed to do either of the things I'm hoping for - the two things which - if accomplished - will unlock the salt beach "Davey Jones Locker" of gold too small for any current detector to detect.These things are:
1. reliable iron id/discrimination to good depth - you are absolutely correct on how the TDI lost depth to get iron ID.
2. Run smoothly at sub 10 microseconds pulse delay in the surf - this has never been done before as far as I know
these guys claim both and demonstrate it with a prototype in video.
Will Fisher's eventual production machine achieve these two goals?
Heck - I don't know, but I strongly suspect that it will.
How did they do it - well if it were Minelab, they would draw al lot of impressive artwork graphs to explain that it was really wonderfully complicated and only they could have done it - while never actually sharing any technical details.
Judging by Fisher's history, I suspect that they will say very little. either it will work and blow our sox off - or it will never see the light of day. If it does work, I suspect that they will not make up wonderful stories about how it works, just say - hey look - this kicks butt!
OK - end of my rant.
Your comments were entirely warranted - I just am optimistic that the future might be just around the corner - at least at the beach.
If this thing actually emerges and does what I hope it will do - I plan to get one and go on safari!
for more detail on what I am talking about about unlocking the undetectable small gold at the beach - google "NASA CZ owner - Salt training 101" - I'd post the link, but don't want to break the rules.
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dewcon
Quality Control Expert
Theres been a lot of improvement in tech. DJ has already stated he had a workable disc PI while at Whites and tried to get Whites to use it in a waterproof TDI..... which he said he turned into his own project. Honestly, what do we need? Id say just something that goes BLAT over iron and high tone for everything else IN the water. We can tell in most cases the size, double beeps, and even a target over all that salt water noise. Hunting with the Xcal in PP you do get used to sounds like the salt water over the coil and minerals..... you mentally ignore them and can pick out those deep targets.
The HEE-HAW of the Finny wasnt good enough.... but it was there. Also it had a very low Us ....and i believe the only PI with swappable coils and phones for deep salt water. So Fisher has a head start there. I dont think its a stretch for them to give us one heck of a disc PI.
The HEE-HAW of the Finny wasnt good enough.... but it was there. Also it had a very low Us ....and i believe the only PI with swappable coils and phones for deep salt water. So Fisher has a head start there. I dont think its a stretch for them to give us one heck of a disc PI.
Tom_in_CA
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I have heard this claim by several pulse users. That they can reject nails d/t a tell-tale double beep. HOWEVER:
a) This only works for straight nails. Not bent ones. Nor washers, bolts, etc....
b) Nagging doubts send them digging a bunch of them "just to be sure"
. So although they say they can tell nails apart, they invariably leave nail-riddled beaches in disgust. I have seen them leave very productive beaches (after storm erosion left 100's of targets) because they couldn't hack all the nails. c) I would wonder if some gold items could give that "tell-tale" double beep ? Like a gold stick pin, or an elongated bracelet or chain.
dewcon
Quality Control Expert
Tom...... no doubt you are right. BUT.... those double beeps had best be heavier than .3 ounce or maybe have a SS spring.
In the situation of more targets and more iron....... vs time and disc capabilities....... the Xcal wins, especially with PP mod/reverse disc.
In the situation of more targets and more iron....... vs time and disc capabilities....... the Xcal wins, especially with PP mod/reverse disc.Steve
Forum Supporter
Using my tdi with my go to coil, wetsand, I'm able to determine what a target is, size, and depth at least 70% of the time. Keep in mind the tdi is hitting everything within range. I'm not missing thin necklaces or other odd stuff that is within range.
PM metals just give off a certain response that sounds clean. Aluminum is sharper and metallic sounding.
I can't get the same results with the df, ss or atx... It might be possible in the right hands though
I used to dig everything regardless of response, after analyzing it, but now that I'm getting older and feeling the hunts more I tend to cherry pick by the end of the hunt.
PM metals just give off a certain response that sounds clean. Aluminum is sharper and metallic sounding.
I can't get the same results with the df, ss or atx... It might be possible in the right hands though
I used to dig everything regardless of response, after analyzing it, but now that I'm getting older and feeling the hunts more I tend to cherry pick by the end of the hunt.
The problem with the TDI's "ignore iron" set up is that the "offset" GB setting reduced the depth to an unacceptable degree. The Manta prototype seems to be doing something quite different.
The video I linked to clearly shows the Manta prototype ignoring iron while hitting a deep ring with the same signal strength as when the detector was set to "accept" the nails. Check out the sequence starting at 13:58 into the video -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G8sdp4RG73g&feature=youtu.be&app=desktop
13:58 - a gold coin is produced -
14:15 - in "all metal" the scrape in the sand is cleared (no target) and the crossed nails buried to one side give a return - this goes on for a while, demonstrating hearing the nails and black sand in "all metal" -
14:37 - they switch to "iron reject" and demo that the nails and black sand are now silent -
14:53 - they deepen the scrape into a hole -
15:25 - he tosses in the gold coin -
15:30 - the coin is detected in the still open hole (note the audio signal strength)
15:48 - the hole depth is roughly gauged - which I think is at least 12" deep- and the hole is covered -
16:06 - the coil is passed over the nails - silence - then passed over the coin - the signal strength is still about the same as the open hole -
and then
18:07 - a gold gent's ring is produced
19:04 - the ring is now buried - the coil is moved - gives a false when it touches down open the wet sand than sounds off when waved over something off-camera (it is actually the black sand bags as we see in the next shot) - the device is in all metal.-
19:08 - having given a sharp return over the black sand bags on the surface, the detector is waved over the ring and sounds off at a lower volume -
19:20 - the coil is waved over the ring and then over the shallow buried nails and the black sand bags - demonstrating that tit is still in all metal
19:40 - detector is switched to iron ignore and gives no signal on the nails -
19:58 - it is switched to "multitude" and gives the same response on the ring but a big wow-wow on the nails.
Is the discrimination of iron perfect - probably not, but there seems to be no significant depth loss associated with the use of it.
This is new- no TDI can do this.
The video I linked to clearly shows the Manta prototype ignoring iron while hitting a deep ring with the same signal strength as when the detector was set to "accept" the nails. Check out the sequence starting at 13:58 into the video -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G8sdp4RG73g&feature=youtu.be&app=desktop
13:58 - a gold coin is produced -
14:15 - in "all metal" the scrape in the sand is cleared (no target) and the crossed nails buried to one side give a return - this goes on for a while, demonstrating hearing the nails and black sand in "all metal" -
14:37 - they switch to "iron reject" and demo that the nails and black sand are now silent -
14:53 - they deepen the scrape into a hole -
15:25 - he tosses in the gold coin -
15:30 - the coin is detected in the still open hole (note the audio signal strength)
15:48 - the hole depth is roughly gauged - which I think is at least 12" deep- and the hole is covered -
16:06 - the coil is passed over the nails - silence - then passed over the coin - the signal strength is still about the same as the open hole -
and then
18:07 - a gold gent's ring is produced
19:04 - the ring is now buried - the coil is moved - gives a false when it touches down open the wet sand than sounds off when waved over something off-camera (it is actually the black sand bags as we see in the next shot) - the device is in all metal.-
19:08 - having given a sharp return over the black sand bags on the surface, the detector is waved over the ring and sounds off at a lower volume -
19:20 - the coil is waved over the ring and then over the shallow buried nails and the black sand bags - demonstrating that tit is still in all metal
19:40 - detector is switched to iron ignore and gives no signal on the nails -
19:58 - it is switched to "multitude" and gives the same response on the ring but a big wow-wow on the nails.
Is the discrimination of iron perfect - probably not, but there seems to be no significant depth loss associated with the use of it.
This is new- no TDI can do this.
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dewcon
Quality Control Expert
I find myself being DIRT DUMB with that video. I dont know if its the nails or the ring.
Hes sure doing a lot of adjustments there. Thats one big box too..... cant we shrink that baby down some? Im guessing by it being a chest mount its also NOT water proof.... am i right?
Steve as to your getting it all down to depth........ ill just say you arent missing what you dont know you missed buddy.
Hes sure doing a lot of adjustments there. Thats one big box too..... cant we shrink that baby down some? Im guessing by it being a chest mount its also NOT water proof.... am i right? Steve as to your getting it all down to depth........ ill just say you arent missing what you dont know you missed buddy.
qwdfghjjkl;'
Waterproof.
Nobody outside the Project knows what the product will look like and nobody inside the project is going to say anything!
My non-existent French has improved slightly since watching that video 10 times!
nails are "clous" (pronounced "clue") - ring is "bague" (pronounced "bag").
I'm totally cranked about this project. I had one of the first TDI's and another one after that, I've had a BHID, CZ6, DF PI, Minelab sd2100, SDC 2300, Garret ATX. N
none of these can do what I HOPE this detector will do at the beach - go deep on any beach - including black sand - id iron to a useful degree and detect thin chains, small charms and medals, earrings and other small gold in the wet salt.
If it does all that, they would be fools to charge less than $1500 for it - nothing else could touch it in salt water.
We will see what happens. For now, this is about all we will get - the "cloak of invisibility" has descended around the project and nothing will emerge until Fisher is good and ready - or never if it flops!
Waterproof.
Nobody outside the Project knows what the product will look like and nobody inside the project is going to say anything!
My non-existent French has improved slightly since watching that video 10 times!
nails are "clous" (pronounced "clue") - ring is "bague" (pronounced "bag").
I'm totally cranked about this project. I had one of the first TDI's and another one after that, I've had a BHID, CZ6, DF PI, Minelab sd2100, SDC 2300, Garret ATX. N
none of these can do what I HOPE this detector will do at the beach - go deep on any beach - including black sand - id iron to a useful degree and detect thin chains, small charms and medals, earrings and other small gold in the wet salt.
If it does all that, they would be fools to charge less than $1500 for it - nothing else could touch it in salt water.
We will see what happens. For now, this is about all we will get - the "cloak of invisibility" has descended around the project and nothing will emerge until Fisher is good and ready - or never if it flops!
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Steve
Forum Supporter
I find myself being DIRT DUMB with that video. I dont know if its the nails or the ring.
Steve as to your getting it all down to depth........ ill just say you arent missing what you dont know you missed buddy.
I run the tdi sl without gb. Some of the small deep iron has a response similar to gold . The gold necklaces where I live have a clasp that will always respond and almost impossible to rip off both ends.
I get signal responses from the tiniest little pieces of metal that are smaller than a link on a necklace. Using other pi machines that are noisier I would definitely miss some of them.
Where this setup lacks and falls behind is in conditions where there is serious erosion with multiple hits per swing.
dewcon
Quality Control Expert
Rick...... great machine...... but Fisher is slower than winter snot to get a machine out. That guys been working on it what 10 years....... ill be to old to enjoy it if they wait another 10 years.
BUT.... id sure like to get my hands on one too.
BUT.... id sure like to get my hands on one too.
Tom_in_CA
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Good study of how the guy in the video tried to cover all bases, of any possible objections. And I had commented that the video maker did try to anticipate any such things.
However, I still can't help but think that something will be a "gotcha". Call me a kill-joy, I know
