Etrac Outperforms my CTX.....Why??

rluna · Mar 14, 2016

A friend and I hunted a 1941 house yesterday and he(with his Etrac)
came across a target that was reading 25-30, 35-30 iron infested
numbers but on one corner a 12-46/47 signal would appear. And the
depth as a whole was showing 10 inches

So I checked the spot with my CTX and I got nothing. Just Iron sounds.
I did manage to get a quick hightone walking around the target a few
times but nothing I would have blinked an eye at.
And I was using the 17" Coil!!

He showed me what the Etrac was getting and having had an Etrac myself
I told him we should probably dig it but....that I would be blown away if it was silver.

Well, I dug the hole and out popped a 1943 Mercury dime, 8" deep. I couldnt believe it!

I was happy for him but was kinda bothered that my CTX with a 17" coil could
barely get a signal on that silver dime.

I Dont Get It!
Anyone have any thoughts on why this could be?

Here is a screen shot of my settings.

Rand(nightdigger)

..

BlackRain · Mar 14, 2016

Interesting, I don't have either but was considering a CTX, wondering if it's worth the money if an etrac will hang with or surpass it

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

j_h_smith · Mar 14, 2016

I'm thinking it's because of the large coil. If there's iron in the ground the CTX could be discriminating the iron and masking the silver coin. When I hunt in "dirty" ground I'll put on the 6 inch coil and I seem to do much better. The only issue with the smaller coil is the e-trac is a slow swing, so it takes a lot more time to cover the same amount of ground. I don't know anything about the CTX, but I think a smaller coil is needed in that kind of soil.

Good Luck!

coin chaser · Mar 14, 2016

Do you have fast and deep on? What's you threshold setting at? Did you try using a open screen program? What was your sens level at the time?

Digging deep targets with a CTX or etrac is easy. Getting the targets in the trash that can be masked is where the skill comes in. First off a 8"coin by trash would have been best to run the stock coil. I hunt the 17" coil as a clean up coil when I'm looking for targets reading at least 8" deep and deeper. It still has good seperation but you have to work any high tones you get and try to make them come in. Lots of times this is just a small wiggle over the target to isolate it from the trash next to it.

Dflan83 · Mar 14, 2016

back when I had the etrac I always had deep on and fast recover off. Not sure or not if its enabled in your settings

tnsharpshooter · Mar 14, 2016

Hard to say exactly.

It would have been better had you had your stock coil on your CTX.

You using larger coil--- dime could have had some iron nearby, and I see how high on your screen you are running your ferrous break point.

You keep doing head to head check of signals with your bud and his etrac--- I'll bet you'll find few that both can't hear-- as long as both are wearing same/ similar sized coils.

detectingMO · Mar 14, 2016

There are many possibilities but for me I think you just answered yourself why when you compared the 17" to what I'm assuming is the 11" on the etrac.

Cherry Picker · Mar 14, 2016

Were you both using the same patterns? For him to hear a 35-30 would take a very open pattern. We're talking having FE down to 35 at least. With a FE that low you will pickup coins that would normally be masked by iron. The drawback is you will be hearing all kinds of noise will hunting.

Another thing is that my experience was while the E-Trac was more of a tone machine the CTX was more of a VDI machine. The VDI was more accurate at a greater depth than the E-Trac, but I do like the tones of the E-Trac slightly better.

That and the bigger coil would cause such a result.

NectarDetector · Mar 14, 2016

detectingMO said:
There are many possibilities but for me I think you just answered yourself why when you compared the 17" to what I'm assuming is the 11" on the etrac.

Then shouldnt the 17 have hit it easier than the 11?

detectingMO · Mar 14, 2016

NectarDetector said:
Then shouldnt the 17 have hit it easier than the 11?

Not with iron around and the pattern/tone setup shown. It would be even harder to unmask and the pattern/tone setup used would not alert on it unless a clean signal. Depth is not a factor for either machine on a 8" coin. IMO

Of course, these are just my opinions using the etrac and CTX in mid mo soil.

Like I said many possibilities with settings, ground, etc. But that monster coil will certainly not hit better than a 11" coil that is already struggling to unmask.

NectarDetector · Mar 14, 2016

detectingMO said:
Not with iron around and the pattern/tone setup shown. It would be even harder to unmask and the pattern/tone setup used would not alert on it unless a clean signal. Depth is not a factor for either machine on a 8" coin. IMO

Of course, these are just my opinions using the etrac and CTX in mid mo soil.

Like I said many possibilities with settings, ground, etc. But that monster coil will certainly not hit better than a 11" coil that is already struggling to unmask.

Good points, and I agree there isn't a huge factor in 8in depth coins of the etrac and 3030

Thanks!

Good points as stated.

Swing360 · Mar 14, 2016

You worked your way through to the issue in the your first post. If the buddy was barely pulling the signal with an open pattern with stock coil that 17" won't separate well enough to get the signal.

I run damn near wide open with the 11" in trashy ground and swap patterns to figure out the iffy stuff. In reality I SHOULD be using the 6". I've seen the scenario you've described a million times though and I think it comes down to experience (no offense). Be it a F2-ETP or a DFX-SEPro or this instance a Etrac to CTX. The right tools help, but then there's the next step.

And back to the experience... I'm only 9 months in with the CTX, so I don't have a world of knowledge with it, but thousands of hours on my others.

DIGGER27 · Mar 14, 2016

Heavy fog, regular beams are one thing, high beams you would think should power through it but the opposite happens....bounce back from the water crystals make it much worse.

I got into it once with a member about coils and coil logic.
I say sniper coils might not cover as much area as bigger coils but I find more using them especially around heavy trash.
He wasn't having any of that...his logic was any metal my small coil could pick up his larger coil would too which is correct.
The problem is that is IMO that is flawed thnking because it is not only about getting the signal but more about what kind of signal you get.
Much more.
Up averaging, down averaging, masking and heavy mineralization in the soil can and change all signals from something you might dig to one you wouldn't go after or even blank out good targets completely.
That is in regular trash...over the next few years I found myself hunting iron infested sites from just bad to unbelievably thick and crazy in both extremely great mild soil and heavy mineralized soil.
I came to find out these same averaging and masking problems in those iron environments become much worse.

I found using smaller and smaller coils I was able to get more accurate data on good targets if only just a hint, learning the behavior of these pieces of hidden masked targets I noticed repeating clues that enabled me to dig more and more of these good targets as I got more experience and avoid most of the iron.

If you are swinging powerful machines depth should not be an issue even up to the 8" or even a bit further like 10" or more depth level with small coils.
My rule is the more trash, and especially iron, the smaller the coil and for me it seemed to work and still does.

That huge coil is great...for other wide open less trashy areas.
In this case standard size or even smaller types I believe would be an advantage.

tnsharpshooter · Mar 14, 2016

Just remember using 2 different sized coils,,, transmit and receive portion not alike.

And with the 17" coil scenario-- it could be possible even a small bit of iron
( microscopic in size ) could be the reason for the non detection.

rluna · Mar 14, 2016

coin chaser said:
Do you have fast and deep on? What's you threshold setting at? Did you try using a open screen program? What was your sens level at the time?

Digging deep targets with a CTX or etrac is easy. Getting the targets in the trash that can be masked is where the skill comes in. First off a 8"coin by trash would have been best to run the stock coil. I hunt the 17" coil as a clean up coil when I'm looking for targets reading at least 8" deep and deeper. It still has good seperation but you have to work any high tones you get and try to make them come in. Lots of times this is just a small wiggle over the target to isolate it from the trash next to it.

Thanks for responding Coinchaser

I have fast and deep off.
Threshold is at 15
Gain is at 26
I dont know what the sensitivity was at

I did try the pattern 2 open screen and that is how I got the little blip of
high tone that I did get.

Rand

.

rluna · Mar 14, 2016

detectingMO said:
There are many possibilities but for me I think you just answered yourself why when you compared the 17" to what I'm assuming is the 11" on the etrac.

Yes, he was using the 11" on his Etrac.

.

rluna · Mar 14, 2016

Detector said:
Were you both using the same patterns? For him to hear a 35-30 would take a very open pattern. We're talking having FE down to 35 at least. With a FE that low you will pickup coins that would normally be masked by iron. The drawback is you will be hearing all kinds of noise will hunting.

.

Yes are patterns were almost the same.

.

Detector said:
Another thing is that my experience was while the E-Trac was more of a tone machine the CTX was more of a VDI machine. The VDI was more accurate at a greater depth than the E-Trac, but I do like the tones of the E-Trac slightly better.

That and the bigger coil would cause such a result.

Hmmm?
I'll have to keep that in mind when taking those Vdi numbers into account
as far as there importance.

.

rluna · Mar 14, 2016

detectingMO said:
Not with iron around and the pattern/tone setup shown. It would be even harder to unmask and the pattern/tone setup used would not alert on it unless a clean signal. Depth is not a factor for either machine on a 8" coin. IMO

Of course, these are just my opinions using the etrac and CTX in mid mo soil.

Like I said many possibilities with settings, ground, etc. But that monster coil will certainly not hit better than a 11" coil that is already struggling to unmask.

I think I'm starting to understand a little better regarding the 17" coil especially.
I think reading Andy Sabisch's CTX handbook will help immensely.
So far besides turning it on and learning how to set up a program
I haven't done much reading .

But if I can find 10 silver coins in the past 8 days not knowing much then
I'm pretty excited to start learning something about this machine :extrahappy:

Rand(nightdigger)

.

rluna · Mar 14, 2016

Swing360 said:
You worked your way through to the issue in the your first post. If the buddy was barely pulling the signal with an open pattern with stock coil that 17" won't separate well enough to get the signal.

He wasn't using an open pattern. He was using pretty much the same pattern that
I was. But I can now see how the 17" coil would have been a hindrance.

Swing360 said:
And back to the experience... I'm only 9 months in with the CTX, so I don't have a world of knowledge with it, but thousands of hours on my others.

Ya, I'm only two weeks into the CTX so I know I have a lot to learn. I'll just keep plugin
away and continue learning. I want to be able to get the most out of what this machine
has to offer

Rand

.

rluna · Mar 14, 2016

DIGGER27 said:
Heavy fog, regular beams are one thing, high beams you would think should power through it but the opposite happens....bounce back from the water crystals make it much worse.

I got into it once with a member about coils and coil logic.
I say sniper coils might not cover as much area as bigger coils but I find more using them especially around heavy trash.
He wasn't having any of that...his logic was any metal my small coil could pick up his larger coil would too which is correct.
The problem is that is IMO that is flawed thnking because it is not only about getting the signal but more about what kind of signal you get.
Much more.
Up averaging, down averaging, masking and heavy mineralization in the soil can and change all signals from something you might dig to one you wouldn't go after or even blank out good targets completely.
That is in regular trash...over the next few years I found myself hunting iron infested sites from just bad to unbelievably thick and crazy in both extremely great mild soil and heavy mineralized soil.
I came to find out these same averaging and masking problems in those iron environments become much worse.

I found using smaller and smaller coils I was able to get more accurate data on good targets if only just a hint, learning the behavior of these pieces of hidden masked targets I noticed repeating clues that enabled me to dig more and more of these good targets as I got more experience and avoid most of the iron.

If you are swinging powerful machines depth should not be an issue even up to the 8" or even a bit further like 10" or more depth level with small coils.
My rule is the more trash, and especially iron, the smaller the coil and for me it seemed to work and still does.

That huge coil is great...for other wide open less trashy areas.
In this case standard size or even smaller types I believe would be an advantage.

.

.
Thanks Digger

Makes a lot of sense. I need to adjust my thinking a little bit.
I like the part where you mentioned the powerful machines and an 8" target.
The fact that the smaller coils will get that 8" target also.

I guess I know this in theory but me, like others cant seem to
get away from the "bigger is deeper" hence "bigger is better" thinking.

It's going to be hard for me to break away from the 17" coil because I cant imagine
not covering that much ground. It is such a time saver!!!
And can I say again, "You can cover Soooo much ground" lol

I know there will be times where the 17" is applicable.....I just wished and hoped
that it would be all the time

Rand(nightdigger)

.

Etrac Outperforms my CTX.....Why??

rluna

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