Tom_in_CA
Elite Member
- Joined
- Dec 23, 2013
- Messages
- 20,836
This was on a forum thread many years ago. But it bears repeating. Because it reveals a wealth of information on the entire psychology regarding legalities in our hobby.
A fellow from the midwest states got into detecting. Joined a club. Made friends with other hobbyists in his area. Learned all he could from his mentors . And one of the places in his part of the state, that was a popular go-to spot for local md'rs, was a particular large reservoir. Like a CCC created reservoir that had boating, fishing, swimming, camping, etc.... And always drew big crowds during the summer on the beaches there. So the md'rs in this guy's area often plied their luck on the swim beaches there.
One day, after a busy 3 day holiday weekend, the md'r was there on an early Monday morning , to ply his luck. Out of the corner of his eye, he sees a truck pull into the parking lot. But he pays it no mind. Then he sees that someone has gotten out of the truck, and is heading his way. He realizes it's a ranger. And sure enough, the ranger is marching out to the beach in his direction.
The ranger tells him: "You can't be doing that here". To which the md'r meekly asks "What's up ? Why is that ?". To which the ranger said "Because it's a state park".
The md'r .... not wanting any hassles, and wanting to be respectful of authority, turned off his machine, apologized, and left.
The md'r then started the long drive back home. But this really began to bug him. Because he and his buddies had detected this beach for YEARS. And ... no one had ever said anything to them. So he began to wonder if this ranger was mistaken.
He called his buddies and reported what happened. This was news to them too. None of them had ever had any issues there. Nor did any of them know of any such rule.
The fellow also got a hold of all the state park's laws, rules, codes, etc.... and could find NOTHING that said "no md'ing". So he began to suspect that this ranger was mistaken.
*HOWEVER*, in his research on the subject (law/rules for state parks in his state), he *did* see some verbiage that *might* apply. Namely the boiler plate cultural heritage wording. It all depended on how someone defines "artifact". So he studied this, and found out that it's typically defined as an object 50 yrs. old or older. But as of the time of this booting, that reservoir was JUST BARELY THEN 50 yrs. old. Thus .... it didn't seem that THIS could be what the ranger was basing the scram on. Eh ?
Or other things that *could* apply. Like "harvest and remove" language. (After all, we "remove" things, eh ?). But the md'r realized that this is a far stretch from the intent of such language. And that verbiage like that was so that no numbskull takes the park benches, or starts commercially harvesting the sand, etc.... Hence that shouldn't apply, eh ?
Or perhaps "alter and deface" language. Because we "dig" after all, right ? But the md'r could not conceive how this would apply to the beach sand. Since, after all, kids make sand castles, eh ? And besides, we cover our holes when we're done. Eh ?
In the course of his research on the subject, he happen-chanced to learn that the neighboring state's state park dept. had EXPRESS ALLOWANCE (albeit on sandy beaches only, or with a permit, or.... whatever). And the md'r thought: THIS IS WHAT OUR STATE NEEDS. Because then it would not be left up to the arbitrary whims and mood of each passing ranger. An express allowance is better than being silent on the subject, eh ?
But the md'r didn't want any hassles. So he decided to make it his mission, and get this ironed out. So he wrote a nice letter to the state park's dept. He researched who it was, in state capitol hierarchy of park personnel, that would be the top-most decision maker. He puts the letter of club letterhead, and was to the effect of:
Dear so & so : On such & such date, and such & such lake beach, I was informed by ranger mr. so & so, that I could not enjoy my hobby of metal detecting. This letter is to object and get this clarified. I have searched through any and all rules, laws, codes of park use, and nothing there says "no metal detectors". Thus I believe that this ranger is mistaken.
If, however, he was relying on the cultural heritage language, then be aware that this park is scarcely now 50 yrs. old. Thus this language would not apply. We are only looking for loose change, modern drops, etc....
If the ranger was thinking "holes", be aware that we leave no trace of our digs, thus, this too wouldn't apply. If the ranger was thinking "harvest" or "remove" wording , be aware that this was never meant to apply to fumble fingers items. And ... if anything, we remove trash, sharp objects, and help people find their items. So ... if anything, we bring positive merit. Thus harvest /remove would not apply.
Lastly, please notice that our neighboring state of such & such, has express allowance, per this chapter and verses in their language. I would very much like to suggest that our state also consider adopting such language. So that it's not left to the arbitrary mood or interpretation of each ranger.
He had it signed by all the members of his club, and mailed it to state capitol.
Weeks went by, and he still had no reply. So he called, and gets a voicemail. Left a nice polite message to the effect that he had sent a letter, and was wondering if they would please check that, get this clarified, etc..
But still no reply
One day, after about a month, he decided to go detecting. He chose a particular park or campground, that .... like the lake, had always ever simply been one of the "go-to" spots, that he and his buddies went to. But after a little while, a ranger came up to tell him to stop. The md'r is thinking "Not again ??" However THIS time , the md'r was well-versed and fully researched on the matter. So THIS time , he was not going to tuck his tail under and leave, like he had done before.
He politely tells the ranger : " Nope, sorry, there's no rule that forbids md'ing. Unless you can show me where it says that, I'm going to have to disagree with you"
The ranger says to him "Buddy, don't shoot, I'm only the messenger". And the ranger pulls a paper out of his pocket, unfolds it, and shows it to the him. It was a fax, that had apparently gone out to all the various park offices throughout the state. To be passed out to the rank & file rangers at each park. And it was a "B.O.L" Eg.: Be on the lookout for md'rs, as this is not allowed, blah blah. And it referenced language about cultural heritage, removing/taking, digging, etc.... as the rationale.
And then he glanced down to the bottom of this department BOL memo paper. And ... guess who it was signed by ?? THE VERY GUY HE'D BEEN PETITIONING to get this issue clarified. He realized, at that moment, that he had only made things worse. He realized in a flash that he should just have left good enough alone. And avoided *just* that one beach, or *just* that one ranger, etc.. Odds are, it was probably a fluke. But no .... now he had single-handedly made his entire state parks off-limits
He passed the paper back to the ranger, turned off his machine, and went home. His buddies got wind of what had happened, and he uhhh, was sort of on-the-outs with them. Ie.: seen as a trouble maker.
So there is a true story, of how these balls often get rolling.
A fellow from the midwest states got into detecting. Joined a club. Made friends with other hobbyists in his area. Learned all he could from his mentors . And one of the places in his part of the state, that was a popular go-to spot for local md'rs, was a particular large reservoir. Like a CCC created reservoir that had boating, fishing, swimming, camping, etc.... And always drew big crowds during the summer on the beaches there. So the md'rs in this guy's area often plied their luck on the swim beaches there.
One day, after a busy 3 day holiday weekend, the md'r was there on an early Monday morning , to ply his luck. Out of the corner of his eye, he sees a truck pull into the parking lot. But he pays it no mind. Then he sees that someone has gotten out of the truck, and is heading his way. He realizes it's a ranger. And sure enough, the ranger is marching out to the beach in his direction.
The ranger tells him: "You can't be doing that here". To which the md'r meekly asks "What's up ? Why is that ?". To which the ranger said "Because it's a state park".
The md'r .... not wanting any hassles, and wanting to be respectful of authority, turned off his machine, apologized, and left.
The md'r then started the long drive back home. But this really began to bug him. Because he and his buddies had detected this beach for YEARS. And ... no one had ever said anything to them. So he began to wonder if this ranger was mistaken.
He called his buddies and reported what happened. This was news to them too. None of them had ever had any issues there. Nor did any of them know of any such rule.
The fellow also got a hold of all the state park's laws, rules, codes, etc.... and could find NOTHING that said "no md'ing". So he began to suspect that this ranger was mistaken.
*HOWEVER*, in his research on the subject (law/rules for state parks in his state), he *did* see some verbiage that *might* apply. Namely the boiler plate cultural heritage wording. It all depended on how someone defines "artifact". So he studied this, and found out that it's typically defined as an object 50 yrs. old or older. But as of the time of this booting, that reservoir was JUST BARELY THEN 50 yrs. old. Thus .... it didn't seem that THIS could be what the ranger was basing the scram on. Eh ?
Or other things that *could* apply. Like "harvest and remove" language. (After all, we "remove" things, eh ?). But the md'r realized that this is a far stretch from the intent of such language. And that verbiage like that was so that no numbskull takes the park benches, or starts commercially harvesting the sand, etc.... Hence that shouldn't apply, eh ?
Or perhaps "alter and deface" language. Because we "dig" after all, right ? But the md'r could not conceive how this would apply to the beach sand. Since, after all, kids make sand castles, eh ? And besides, we cover our holes when we're done. Eh ?
In the course of his research on the subject, he happen-chanced to learn that the neighboring state's state park dept. had EXPRESS ALLOWANCE (albeit on sandy beaches only, or with a permit, or.... whatever). And the md'r thought: THIS IS WHAT OUR STATE NEEDS. Because then it would not be left up to the arbitrary whims and mood of each passing ranger. An express allowance is better than being silent on the subject, eh ?
But the md'r didn't want any hassles. So he decided to make it his mission, and get this ironed out. So he wrote a nice letter to the state park's dept. He researched who it was, in state capitol hierarchy of park personnel, that would be the top-most decision maker. He puts the letter of club letterhead, and was to the effect of:
Dear so & so : On such & such date, and such & such lake beach, I was informed by ranger mr. so & so, that I could not enjoy my hobby of metal detecting. This letter is to object and get this clarified. I have searched through any and all rules, laws, codes of park use, and nothing there says "no metal detectors". Thus I believe that this ranger is mistaken.
If, however, he was relying on the cultural heritage language, then be aware that this park is scarcely now 50 yrs. old. Thus this language would not apply. We are only looking for loose change, modern drops, etc....
If the ranger was thinking "holes", be aware that we leave no trace of our digs, thus, this too wouldn't apply. If the ranger was thinking "harvest" or "remove" wording , be aware that this was never meant to apply to fumble fingers items. And ... if anything, we remove trash, sharp objects, and help people find their items. So ... if anything, we bring positive merit. Thus harvest /remove would not apply.
Lastly, please notice that our neighboring state of such & such, has express allowance, per this chapter and verses in their language. I would very much like to suggest that our state also consider adopting such language. So that it's not left to the arbitrary mood or interpretation of each ranger.
He had it signed by all the members of his club, and mailed it to state capitol.
Weeks went by, and he still had no reply. So he called, and gets a voicemail. Left a nice polite message to the effect that he had sent a letter, and was wondering if they would please check that, get this clarified, etc..
But still no reply
One day, after about a month, he decided to go detecting. He chose a particular park or campground, that .... like the lake, had always ever simply been one of the "go-to" spots, that he and his buddies went to. But after a little while, a ranger came up to tell him to stop. The md'r is thinking "Not again ??" However THIS time , the md'r was well-versed and fully researched on the matter. So THIS time , he was not going to tuck his tail under and leave, like he had done before.
He politely tells the ranger : " Nope, sorry, there's no rule that forbids md'ing. Unless you can show me where it says that, I'm going to have to disagree with you"
The ranger says to him "Buddy, don't shoot, I'm only the messenger". And the ranger pulls a paper out of his pocket, unfolds it, and shows it to the him. It was a fax, that had apparently gone out to all the various park offices throughout the state. To be passed out to the rank & file rangers at each park. And it was a "B.O.L" Eg.: Be on the lookout for md'rs, as this is not allowed, blah blah. And it referenced language about cultural heritage, removing/taking, digging, etc.... as the rationale.
And then he glanced down to the bottom of this department BOL memo paper. And ... guess who it was signed by ?? THE VERY GUY HE'D BEEN PETITIONING to get this issue clarified. He realized, at that moment, that he had only made things worse. He realized in a flash that he should just have left good enough alone. And avoided *just* that one beach, or *just* that one ranger, etc.. Odds are, it was probably a fluke. But no .... now he had single-handedly made his entire state parks off-limits
He passed the paper back to the ranger, turned off his machine, and went home. His buddies got wind of what had happened, and he uhhh, was sort of on-the-outs with them. Ie.: seen as a trouble maker.
So there is a true story, of how these balls often get rolling.