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  #1  
Old 07-18-2022, 04:39 PM
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Default Give me Liberty and give me Depth

OK, the whole "unmasking" & wireless thing is cool and all but when are we going to see more depth?

For some sites, unmasking is probably a big thing, but I have maybe 1 site where masking is a possible problem, so I just run no discrimination and dig it all. I could really get some use out of more depth. I have some really good stuff just beyond the current VLF technologies depth, and I'd love to get it before I'm too old.

Has anyone heard any rumors of new tech that will actually go deep? I know some of you people have an inside link and have possibly heard of new tech coming. When are we going to see more depth? And I know depth is relative to conditions. I'm talking real depth. Coins at 15"-18" in the city park type depth

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Old 07-18-2022, 05:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Detector View post

For some sites, unmasking is probably a big thing, but I have maybe 1 site where masking is a possible problem, so I just run no discrimination and dig it all.
That would be fine if you had a detector with a true all metal mode, and you don't mind digging up massive amounts nails, steel bottle caps, and other ferrous junk.

The point of unmasking, is to get those "hidden" coins while limiting cr-p digging as much as possible


Originally Posted by Detector View post

I'm talking real depth. Coins at 15"-18" in the city park type depth
I don't hunt on manicured grass any more, but I cringe at the plug and dirt pile just for a 6" hole. For a 15" hole? I'd probably get shot at
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Old 07-18-2022, 06:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Detector View post
Has anyone heard any rumors of new tech that will actually go deep?
PI maybe? Especially for a dig it all approach.

The only rumors I've heard, are that the physics of VLF depth maxed out a long time ago and that's that.

I'm more hoping for vastly improved EMI handling. EMI has gotten bad, in the urban areas around here. Bad.

- Dave
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  #4  
Old 07-18-2022, 06:45 PM
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Out here there is a Minelab GPX for sale on Craigslist for $1200.00, I bet it goes deep!

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  #5  
Old 07-18-2022, 07:18 PM
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You and I will be deep in the ground ourselves before there is any substantial gain in detector depth. A discriminating PI was our best hope. We all know how that turned out.
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  #6  
Old 07-19-2022, 06:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Digalicious View post
That would be fine if you had a detector with a true all metal mode, and you don't mind digging up massive amounts nails, steel bottle caps, and other ferrous junk.

The point of unmasking, is to get those "hidden" coins while limiting cr-p digging as much as possible
My $250 Simplex can quite easily tell me the difference between a bed of nails and when a high conductor is present. 50 years of detecting has led me to believe masking is highly overrated. Yes, I have pulled a few good coins that were masked, but the few I recovered were not even close to the effort and time wasted digging trash.


I don't hunt on manicured grass any more, but I cringe at the plug and dirt pile just for a 6" hole. For a 15" hole? I'd probably get shot at
A properly cut plug can cover a hole be it 8" or 20". In our city park, where those super deep coins exist, the grass goes down about 5"6" Cut your plug, dig in the remaining dirt as deep as you want and you can put it all back, replace the plug, and it will be fine. The key is knowing how to properly plug for a deep dig. But you're correct, there are a lot of people who do not know, or care, how to properly plug for a deep target. But then those people make a mess out of a 3" hole.

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  #7  
Old 07-19-2022, 07:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Detector View post
My $250 Simplex can quite easily tell me the difference between a bed of nails and when a high conductor is present. 50 years of detecting has led me to believe masking is highly overrated. Yes, I have pulled a few good coins that were masked, but the few I recovered were not even close to the effort and time wasted digging trash.
I could be wrong, but I suspect you came to that conclusion by detecting a coin, in which there were 1 or more ferrous objects in the plug and/or hole.

As you know, unmasking and recovery speed aren't technically the same thing, but they are related. For a bed a nails, an elliptical DD coil is going to separate and unmask much better than a round DD coil. As such, I much preferred the 9.5x5 coil over the 11" round coil in most, if not all sites with my Simplex.

What are your thoughts on this video showing a separation and unmasking comparison between the Simplex, D2, and the Legend? If you don't want to watch the video, I'll summarize by saying the Simplex does very poorly, but the Legend hits each coin like a laser.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RpMQIr4CR90&t=1s





Originally Posted by Detector View post
A properly cut plug can cover a hole be it 8" or 20". In our city park, where those super deep coins exist, the grass goes down about 5"6" Cut your plug, dig in the remaining dirt as deep as you want and you can put it all back, replace the plug, and it will be fine. The key is knowing how to properly plug for a deep dig. But you're correct, there are a lot of people who do not know, or care, how to properly plug for a deep target. But then those people make a mess out of a 3" hole.
I wasn't so much referring to grass damage, but I will say that no matter how good of a plug is made, grass damage is far more common then a lot of us want to admit.

I was more referring to the optics of a giant plug sitting on the grass along with a large pile of dirt.
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Old 07-19-2022, 09:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Digalicious View post
I could be wrong, but I suspect you came to that conclusion by detecting a coin, in which there were 1 or more ferrous objects in the plug and/or hole.

As you know, unmasking and recovery speed aren't technically the same thing, but they are related. For a bed a nails, an elliptical DD coil is going to separate and unmask much better than a round DD coil. As such, I much preferred the 9.5x5 coil over the 11" round coil in most, if not all sites with my Simplex.

What are your thoughts on this video showing a separation and unmasking comparison between the Simplex, D2, and the Legend? If you don't want to watch the video, I'll summarize by saying the Simplex does very poorly, but the Legend hits each coin like a laser.
Believe me, I know the difference between recovery speed & unmasking LOL. I've done a few videos showing the 20 year old Whites DFX doing the rusted nail with a coin trick.

No, I came to the conclusion from 50 years of swinging a detector. I have gone through all the stages. My conclusion is based on years of cherry-picking in these heavy trash sites, only to come back years later after I ran out of good easy sites, and started digging it all looking for that masked goody. Like I said, yes I did find a few, but not near enough to justify the time & effort spent for a single reward. I guess I'm not quite that hard up yet LOL. Not that I won't soon be. 50 years in one location and you tend to clean out most of the good spots.

I have watched so many videos on the new detectors claims of unmasking I could puke. Some are pretty impressive indeed, but, setting up a video is a lot different than a real in the field unmasking. Where are all those videos? HUM? Not saying it isn't important to others, just not to me. I have yet to see the reward, and I'm running too short of time to waste it chasing that one missed goody.

I see it as playing the lottery. It is the hope & belief that you MIGHT find something good that was missed because the possibility exists and others have, so you just keep trying. After a while, you may have won a few payoffs, but in the end, there are only a few big winners. But then, that is what dreams are made of right!

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  #9  
Old 07-19-2022, 09:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Detector View post

I have watched so many videos on the new detectors claims of unmasking I could puke. Some are pretty impressive indeed, but, setting up a video is a lot different than a real in the field unmasking.
The point of air tests, is to show "potential". If a detector can't detect or unmask the target above ground, then the detector most certainly isn't going to be able to detect it underground.

...user knowledge and expertise not withstanding.
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  #10  
Old 07-19-2022, 09:36 AM
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*DELETED* Duplicated post.

Last edited by Martin_V3i; 07-19-2022 at 01:00 PM.
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  #11  
Old 07-19-2022, 09:38 AM
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"Believe me, I know the difference between recovery speed & unmasking LOL. I've done a few videos showing the 20 year old Whites DFX doing the rusted nail with a coin trick.

No, I came to the conclusion from 50 years of swinging a detector. I have gone through all the stages. My conclusion is based on years of cherry-picking in these heavy trash sites, only to come back years later after I ran out of good easy sites, and started digging it all looking for that masked goody. Like I said, yes I did find a few, but not near enough to justify the time & effort spent for a single reward. I guess I'm not quite that hard up yet LOL. Not that I won't soon be. 50 years in one location and you tend to clean out most of the good spots.

I have watched so many videos on the new detectors claims of unmasking I could puke. Some are pretty impressive indeed, but, setting up a video is a lot different than a real in the field unmasking. Where are all those videos? HUM? Not saying it isn't important to others, just not to me. I have yet to see the reward, and I'm running too short of time to waste it chasing that one missed goody.

I see it as playing the lottery. It is the hope & belief that you MIGHT find something good that was missed, because others have, so you just keep trying. After a while, you may have won a few payoffs, but in the end, there are only a few big winners. But then, that is what dreams are made of right!"

This post hit the nail on the head in my view.
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  #12  
Old 07-19-2022, 09:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Martin_V3i View post
"Believe me, I know the difference between recovery speed & unmasking LOL. I've done a few videos showing the 20 year old Whites DFX doing the rusted nail with a coin trick.

No, I came to the conclusion from 50 years of swinging a detector. I have gone through all the stages. My conclusion is based on years of cherry-picking in these heavy trash sites, only to come back years later after I ran out of good easy sites, and started digging it all looking for that masked goody. Like I said, yes I did find a few, but not near enough to justify the time & effort spent for a single reward. I guess I'm not quite that hard up yet LOL. Not that I won't soon be. 50 years in one location and you tend to clean out most of the good spots.

I have watched so many videos on the new detectors claims of unmasking I could puke. Some are pretty impressive indeed, but, setting up a video is a lot different than a real in the field unmasking. Where are all those videos? HUM? Not saying it isn't important to others, just not to me. I have yet to see the reward, and I'm running too short of time to waste it chasing that one missed goody.

I see it as playing the lottery. It is the hope & belief that you MIGHT find something good that was missed, because others have, so you just keep trying. After a while, you may have won a few payoffs, but in the end, there are only a few big winners. But then, that is what dreams are made of right!"

This post hit the nail on the head in my view.
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Old 07-19-2022, 10:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Detector View post
My conclusion is based on years of cherry-picking in these heavy trash sites, only to come back years later after I ran out of good easy sites, and started digging it all looking for that masked goody. Like I said, yes I did find a few, but not near enough to justify the time & effort spent for a single reward.
(My underlines).

I only cherry pick as well. I find "Digging it all" is a huge waste of time and effort. Time and effort that could have been spent digging coins, instead of digging mostly trash. To me, digging it all, is whatever the opposite of fun is

With that said, and with my underlines, I'm not sure why you're equating unmasking with digging it all. Unmasking is still cherry picking.

Also, what do you think about the optics comment I made?
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Old 07-19-2022, 11:54 AM
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Originally Posted by UT_Dave View post
The only rumors I've heard, are that the physics of VLF depth maxed out a long time ago and that's that.

I'm more hoping for vastly improved EMI handling. EMI has gotten bad, in the urban areas around here. Bad.

- Dave
This is pretty much a fact.

Since ground is magnetically polarizable it interferes with the reactive component of the signal, meaning as you increase transmit power to the coil you light up the ground more. Since the reactive component of the signal is used in target discrimination, pumping too much energy into the ground makes it hard to tell desirable targets apart from the ground itself.

This is also why targets "fade to iron" at depth. The magnetized ground signal eventually overpowers the reactive signal component of a non-ferrous object rendering discrimination ineffective. Magnetized ground produces significantly more reactive signal component than resistive, so at depth you lose discrimination ability before you lose complete detectability (this is also why target ID accuracy suffers at depth and in highly mineralized ground).

If there are diminishing returns on increasing field strength / effective size, then the only other option is to up the amplification / sensitivity of the detector, but as you do that EMI gets worse as well.

Barring some new revolutionary physics or game changing noise canceling algorithms, you are not likely to see more depth anytime soon.
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Old 07-19-2022, 12:00 PM
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Originally Posted by AccurateCalls View post

Barring some new revolutionary physics or game changing noise canceling algorithms, you are not likely to see more depth anytime soon.
Exactly!

You wouldn't believe how many people I've tried to explain that to, but they still insist that their new flagship detector goes "way deeper" than the other guy's flagship detector.

I then say, "Really"? What new technology makes it do so? The answer is always crickets.
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Old 07-19-2022, 12:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Digalicious View post
(My underlines).

I only cherry pick as well. I find "Digging it all" is a huge waste of time and effort. Time and effort that could have been spent digging coins, instead of digging mostly trash. To me, digging it all, is whatever the opposite of fun is

With that said, and with my underlines, I'm not sure why you're equating unmasking with digging it all. Unmasking is still cherry picking.
Yeah I agree they are not the same. I have just always put unmasking & digging it all in the same bucket. For me, they both have about the same results I guess. My cherry picking has been very successful as far as not leaving goodies behind. I've seen unmasking referred to "if you're not digging it all, you are missing stuff."

Unmasking, in my opinion, is just a new term to make people think it is some kind of new technology/magic. I'm oversimplifying it I'm sure, but really it is just a pretty simple task. They make it look like the detector is saying hey, there is a coin in with all that iron, but they never show the VDI. Do you know why? Because in fact, the detector is simply saying there is something besides a piece of iron. They say see this detector sees the dime in all this iron, when in fact the detector is just saying there is something besides just the iron. Does the VDI show a dime in all that iron? No, the numbers just say there is something besides the iron. Could be a piece of aluminum trash and still unmask it.

Also, what do you think about the optics comment I made?
I take especially though out care when I recover a target deep. You may have noticed I don't even like using the term dig. I generally call it recovery because the word dig put a picture in the mind of land owners. I do agree that optics is something a lot of detectorists don't take into consideration when they're recovering a target. I have often gone as deep as 12" and still not looked much different than going 6".

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Old 07-19-2022, 12:10 PM
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I know a guy who digs it all, and he sure doesn't find much for how much trash he digs. At this one heavily hunted spot in the last 5 years I know I have found more silver, V nickels, and IHP's than he has despite all his digging. I do not dig it all.

I've hunted behind good detectorist and found stuff they missed. Way to much to say they just missed those targets. Your detector matters. Yes the Etrac and CTX are better for Cherry Picking than most detectors, but there are consequences to using them in my opinion.

I'm still waiting for my two buddies with Deus II's to wow me with it's unmasking ability. From some videos I've heard about it should be finding all kinds of masked silver I couldn't detect from these hunted out spots. So far that has not been the case.

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  #18  
Old 07-19-2022, 12:18 PM
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Originally Posted by longbow62 View post
I'm still waiting for my two buddies with Deus II's to wow me with it's unmasking ability. From some videos I've heard about it should be finding all kinds of masked silver I couldn't detect from these hunted out spots. So far that has not been the case.
BINGO! I'm still waiting myself.

For me, the most impressive improvement in detectors is that my $250 detector has Bluetooth and weighs 1.2 lbs. Now that is technology.

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Old 07-19-2022, 12:21 PM
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Originally Posted by longbow62 View post
I'm still waiting for my two buddies with Deus II's to wow me with it's unmasking ability. From some videos I've heard about it should be finding all kinds of masked silver I couldn't detect from these hunted out spots. So far that has not been the case.
Obviously there are bad metal detectors that are bad at unmasking, but once you get to the top tier detectors, there isn't much difference, because the physics of the situation becomes the primary limiting factor.

The top tier detectors have roughly the same field shape and size which is the primary determining factor for how strongly a ferrous or non-ferrous object is magnetically polarized. From that point forward, it's just a matter of determining where you draw the line in the sand in terms of processing the ratio of ferrous / non-ferrous signal received (Minelab calls this line in the sand, Iron Bias). Accepting a lower ratio of non-ferrous to ferrous, can aid in unmasking, but also produces more false positives on iron. Most things are a trade-off.

There simply is no magic technology / field that won't excite iron when it is under the coil. Signal processing can only do so much from there, and it's not beyond the capabilities of any top manufacturer to come within narrow margins compared to their competitors.
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Old 07-19-2022, 12:25 PM
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I don't even know where all this "dig it all" craziness started. It's one of those illogical things that make no sense, but illogical people keep repeating it, and worse, they tell that to the newbies who post that they are sick of digging junk. In other words, the answer these "dig it all people" give to those newbies that are sick of digging junk, is to dig more junk (insert world's largest facepalm).
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