Big Boys Hobbies

Revive Turtlefoot's Headstamp Page?

AirmetTango

AirmetTango

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A recent thread in the "Help To ID My Finds" section reminded me of how much Turtlefoot's vast knowledge of old US shotshell headstamps has been missed. For those who may not know, Turtlefoot was an active member of this and other MD forums, and he maintained an excellent website that was a huge asset for identifying dates and other info for headstamps. Unfortunately, Turtlefoot suddenly became inactive, and his website went offline a little over a year ago. I started detecting too late to benefit from Turtlefoot's knowledge directly - his website was already down by the time I learned about it. But whenever I've researched a headstamp that I've found, it has been rare that I do a Google search and his name doesn't come up in the results - there's no doubt his knowledge on the subject is/was extensive.

All that said, I've been thinking a lot about attempting to resurrect his database. My knowledge is not even close to the level Turtlefoot had, but I have the desire to learn more. I save every headstamp I find and research the ones that seem to be older. I know some folks consider headstamps an annoyance or trash, but I definitely don't mind digging them for several reasons. They often have a researchable history that I find interesting, but that also means you can usually find a date range for them. Once you know all that, headstamps can help date the ground you're hunting, build a picture of how the site was used, and give you an idea how far you might have to dig to reach silver. Not bad for the "lowly" headstamp ;)

Anyway, I can access the text for Turtlefoot's website from a web archive, which has most of his carefully acquired headstamp info - but all the associated headstamp images are missing. I could download Turtlefoot's website from the web archive and try to gradually re-associate new pics with the descriptions, and upload them to a new web address and essentially bring his website back. All of the work would still be attributed to Turtlefoot, of course.

Before I make the investment into webspace and time for this project, I wanted to see what folks think about doing this. How much interest would you all have in seeing a revived Turtlefoot Headstamp page? Am I potentially running up against copyright issues? Again, I would plan to give full credit to Turtlefoot for the existing information, and I certainly wouldn't be doing it for profit. What do you all think?
 
There's another site that's a little more specific than the above site, but I can't remember it right now. I'll post it if I locate it.
 
Wow! Got buried under 2 1/2 pages of "welcome" signs overnight....I'm glad coins don't sink that fast!!

FreeBirdTim said:
Not sure if it's really necessary. I use this website to help ID headstamps. Not perfect, but it does narrow down the date range.

http://www.cartridge-corner.com/shotgun.htm
Click to expand...

FreeBirdTim said:
There's another site that's a little more specific than the above site, but I can't remember it right now. I'll post it if I locate it.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the input FBTim. I've seen that cartridge corner site before, and it's definitely very useful. I got a basic ID there that I couldn't find anywhere else on an unusual "Club" headstamp I found earlier this year, so it seems to cover more manufacturers than Turtlefoot's page. But Turtlefoot's page was often much more specific on dates and other details. On the other hand, if few folks have a need or interest in that level of detail, I don't want to waste time re-creating it.

I'd certainly be interested to see the other website if you think of it. I'll be doing some searches as well.
 
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Salvaging otherwise lost information like this is certainly a good thing.
I would use it to research the occasional find.
Is there any way to identify Turtlefoot, and find out if he's still alive, still knowledgeable, etc.? Perhaps he or his family would be willing to work with you on this. Find the source. That's my advice. Good luck!
 
AirmetTango said:
A recent thread in the "Help To ID My Finds" section reminded me of how much Turtlefoot's vast knowledge of old US shotshell headstamps has been missed. For those who may not know, Turtlefoot was an active member of this and other MD forums, and he maintained an excellent website that was a huge asset for identifying dates and other info for headstamps. Unfortunately, Turtlefoot suddenly became inactive, and his website went offline a little over a year ago. I started detecting too late to benefit from Turtlefoot's knowledge directly - his website was already down by the time I learned about it. But whenever I've researched a headstamp that I've found, it has been rare that I do a Google search and his name doesn't come up in the results - there's no doubt his knowledge on the subject is/was extensive.

All that said, I've been thinking a lot about attempting to resurrect his database. My knowledge is not even close to the level Turtlefoot had, but I have the desire to learn more. I save every headstamp I find and research the ones that seem to be older. I know some folks consider headstamps an annoyance or trash, but I definitely don't mind digging them for several reasons. They often have a researchable history that I find interesting, but that also means you can usually find a date range for them. Once you know all that, headstamps can help date the ground you're hunting, build a picture of how the site was used, and give you an idea how far you might have to dig to reach silver. Not bad for the "lowly" headstamp ;)

Anyway, I can access the text for Turtlefoot's website from a web archive, which has most of his carefully acquired headstamp info - but all the associated headstamp images are missing. I could download Turtlefoot's website from the web archive and try to gradually re-associate new pics with the descriptions, and upload them to a new web address and essentially bring his website back. All of the work would still be attributed to Turtlefoot, of course.

Before I make the investment into webspace and time for this project, I wanted to see what folks think about doing this. How much interest would you all have in seeing a revived Turtlefoot Headstamp page? Am I potentially running up against copyright issues? Again, I would plan to give full credit to Turtlefoot for the existing information, and I certainly wouldn't be doing it for profit. What do you all think?
Click to expand...

Im a big fan of Headstamps myself, and agree whole heartedly with your reasoning.

Ive also benefited from Turtlefoot's research.

I cant imagine a scenario where someone as dedicated and passionate as Turtlefoot was, in spending his time doing extensive research on a relatively obscure subject just to help others with a similar interest, would object to someone else being interested enough to carrying on with keeping his work alive and available to help others, after he was no longer seemingly able to do so.

IMHO doing so is both a respectful and worthwhile endeavor.

I think a lot of folks would think so as well.
 
AirmetTango said:
A recent thread in the "Help To ID My Finds" section reminded me of how much Turtlefoot's vast knowledge of old US shotshell headstamps has been missed. For those who may not know, Turtlefoot was an active member of this and other MD forums, and he maintained an excellent website that was a huge asset for identifying dates and other info for headstamps. Unfortunately, Turtlefoot suddenly became inactive, and his website went offline a little over a year ago. I started detecting too late to benefit from Turtlefoot's knowledge directly - his website was already down by the time I learned about it. But whenever I've researched a headstamp that I've found, it has been rare that I do a Google search and his name doesn't come up in the results - there's no doubt his knowledge on the subject is/was extensive.

All that said, I've been thinking a lot about attempting to resurrect his database. My knowledge is not even close to the level Turtlefoot had, but I have the desire to learn more. I save every headstamp I find and research the ones that seem to be older. I know some folks consider headstamps an annoyance or trash, but I definitely don't mind digging them for several reasons. They often have a researchable history that I find interesting, but that also means you can usually find a date range for them. Once you know all that, headstamps can help date the ground you're hunting, build a picture of how the site was used, and give you an idea how far you might have to dig to reach silver. Not bad for the "lowly" headstamp ;)

Anyway, I can access the text for Turtlefoot's website from a web archive, which has most of his carefully acquired headstamp info - but all the associated headstamp images are missing. I could download Turtlefoot's website from the web archive and try to gradually re-associate new pics with the descriptions, and upload them to a new web address and essentially bring his website back. All of the work would still be attributed to Turtlefoot, of course.

Before I make the investment into webspace and time for this project, I wanted to see what folks think about doing this. How much interest would you all have in seeing a revived Turtlefoot Headstamp page? Am I potentially running up against copyright issues? Again, I would plan to give full credit to Turtlefoot for the existing information, and I certainly wouldn't be doing it for profit. What do you all think?
Click to expand...

I am very knowledgeable about copyrights and web publishing.

The best and safest way is to try and contact the guy or his family. Typically he would have used some kind of web page platform. If he was detailed oriented and careful he would have had backups.

For instance I use wordpress on all of my web sites. I can back up all my complete content of wordpress, images, text content the whole nine yards to a wordpress text file with one click. Once I have that file I can recreate the web page anywhere perfectly with one click. In my opinion wordpress is the best web page publishing platform available. I have been using it since 2002.

But to keep legal, just attributing it to the owner will not work. Under the Fair Use portion of the US Copyright laws you can use small portions of copyrighted images and text. But to recreate the complete web site without his or heirs written permission opens you up to a very clear case of copyright violations and the penalties can even be treble monetary damages had he filed an actual copyright form with the government which only costs $10.

On other hand, it is quite possible that none of heirs actually gives a hoot about his web site. so it is up to you to take your chances or not. If you have no assets and rent then go for it. But if you have a home, land, good job you can lose your home, land and get your wages garnished.

You probably would have more fun building your own headstamp web site on wordpress platform and do some research and let it grow. In that case it is 100% yours.
 
Foragist said:
Is there any way to identify Turtlefoot, and find out if he's still alive, still knowledgeable, etc.? Perhaps he or his family would be willing to work with you on this. Find the source. That's my advice. Good luck!
Click to expand...

Yes, I have his full name from his former website, but it's a fairly common name. Location is listed only as "The Ozarks" in his forum posts, but that might help narrow things down. His DOB is listed on his profile for the FMDF - he's my age...pretty young, but that doesn't mean much. I seem to recall reading posts awhile back that implied he was having some health issues. You're right, I really will need to track him or his family down first.
 
Buck8Point said:
I cant imagine a scenario where someone as dedicated and passionate as Turtlefoot was, in spending his time doing extensive research on a relatively obscure subject just to help others with a similar interest, would object to someone else being interested enough to carrying on with keeping his work alive and available to help others, after he was no longer seemingly able to do so.

IMHO doing so is both a respectful and worthwhile endeavor.
Click to expand...

Thanks Buck8Point - that was my initial thought. As others have pointed out, I'll need to contact Turtlefoot or his family first and go from there.
 
maxxkatt said:
The best and safest way is to try and contact the guy or his family....

But to keep legal, just attributing it to the owner will not work. Under the Fair Use portion of the US Copyright laws you can use small portions of copyrighted images and text. But to recreate the complete web site without his or heirs written permission opens you up to a very clear case of copyright violations....
Click to expand...

Thanks maxxkatt - exactly the kind of issues that I'm concerned about. As much as I'd like to resurrect his work, I certainly don't want to run afoul of copyright. I'll make the effort to try and contact him or his family then figure out how to go forward from there.

maxxkatt said:
On other hand, it is quite possible that none of heirs actually gives a hoot about his web site. so it is up to you to take your chances or not. If you have no assets and rent then go for it. But if you have a home, land, good job you can lose your home, land and get your wages garnished.
Click to expand...

Definitely not worth that kind of risk. I love my headstamps, but I love my job, home, and financial stability for my family more :lol: Not to mention that I have a deep respect for the rules that protect intellectual property. If I do this, I want to make sure it's done right and legally.

maxxkatt said:
You probably would have more fun building your own headstamp web site on wordpress platform and do some research and let it grow. In that case it is 100% yours.
Click to expand...

Good point - and definitely worth considering. Still, it's hard to ignore the vast quantity of information already available on Turtlefoot's former page - if I can get permission to use that information as a starting point, great. If not, then the only option would be to start from scratch. You're right - that may be more fun, and maybe more rewarding being my own work, but it would also be a tremendously larger project than it already is.

All that said, I like challenges... :grin:
 
I thought about doing the same thing. I didn’t see any photos remaining. The text itself is huge though to have. I saved down a few pages should probably save the rest. Hosting them somewhere I’d want to get an ok from the guy since it was his work. Tempting though!
 
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I am 100% in favor of preserving his research. Too new here to have seen his site but have seen many references to it in older posts. I like digging turn of the century head stamps... not as much as coins of the same era, but still enjoy them very much. Except when they look like a Buff or V as they come out of the dirt!!
 
At the start of the year, I got in touch with Turtlefoot about a headstamp project I was working on here in Australia. He was keen for his work to continue on and so he sent me his website and photos. A few of his photos didn't turn up but the majority I have online at aussiemetaldetecting.com
I am not sure why Doug no longer posts on the forums as he didn't tell me but he did say his health had been poor in recent years. I believe he is still somewhat active on youtube.
I am slowly collecting more headstamps and photos to add to the database and doing my best to date them. Working on a few Eley shotshell headstamps currently if anyone here can help with dates, they are displayed on the above mentioned website.

Mike.
 
aussiemd said:
At the start of the year, I got in touch with Turtlefoot about a headstamp project I was working on here in Australia. He was keen for his work to continue on and so he sent me his website and photos. A few of his photos didn't turn up but the majority I have online at aussiemetaldetecting.com
Click to expand...

Thanks so much for bringing Turtlefoot's database back to life, Mike! It's a wonderful resource - I predict I'll be making many visits to aussiemetaldetecting.com to get info on headstamps as I find them.
 
Excellent work Ausie! I'm going to share this with my MD club. Would have been a shame to let all of this hard work and research just go to waste.
 
Great to see you're continuing his work. Here's a shotgun shell I found last year (although I did find an exact same example a few days ago, except it wasn't in as good condition as this one).
 

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