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Not quite sure how to take this

Kris in WA

Senior Member
Joined
Apr 18, 2008
Messages
280
Location
Yakima, WA
So, i have been posting adds of craigslist to get permission to detect peoples property. i have gotten several hits, but today i got an email that im not quite sure how to take. anyways. what are your thoughts. i almost feel like i have been scolded.

Here is the craigslist add

I am lookin for new spots to use my metal detector. I prefer yards or lots, and will remove all trash I uncover. I am mainly interested in older coins and tokens. Almost every yard or grass strip holds coins and relics that are just waiting to be found. I don't leave holes and will leave all sites in as found or better condition. So if you have a lot or yard older than the 1950's and don't mind, I would love the privilege to metal detect your place. This is purely my hobby. I will answer all emails. I prefer the Bellingham/Everson area but will travel if my schedule permits. Thanks for lookin!


Here is the email i got today

Greetings,

We recently noticed your advertisement on Craigslist. Though we have not heard from you directly, as the state agency tasked with protecting archaeological sites and resources for the inspiration and enrichment of the citizens of Washington, we felt it would be productive to contact you directly.


It is our understanding that you are interested in metal detecting lots or yards over 50 years old to find coins, tokens, or relics. Items over 50 years old, produced or modified by humans, below the surface of the ground and submerged under water, are archaeological objects. Archaeological objects, and archaeological sites and resources, are protected resources under state statutes.

In addition, per RCW 27.53.060, a permit is required for any person to knowingly and willfully remove, alter, dig into, excavate or remove an archaeological object or site in the state of Washington.

This statute applies to both public and private lands. Even with landowner permission, a permit from DAHP is required. The permit processes requires a research design, a plan for care and cleaning of the recovered objects, the commitment to write a professional, technical report, and appropriate curation of the artifacts and data recovered. The permit process also requires DAHP to afford interested parties an opportunity to comment on the proposed excavation project, prior to its commencement. These parties typically include affected Indian Tribes, local government, historical societies, landowners, and archaeological peers. Permit application forms are available on our website at http://www.dahp.wa.gov/pages/Archaeology/Permitting.htm.

Failure to obtain such a permit, or failure to comply with any permit conditions, can result in civil penalties in an amount up to $5000 per violation, restoration costs and investigative costs. Furthermore, if burials, cairns, or glyptic records are involved, RCW 27.44 allows the affected Indian Tribe to file claims for damages and emotional distress.

Excavation permits are granted to professional archaeologists who meet the requirements of that definition under RCW 27.53.030(8). While we understand metal detecting is your hobby, much damage has been done to the state’s archaeological resources by hobbyists.

There are legal ways to experience the excitement of discovery of our historic past. The Forest Service operates a program entitled “Passport in Time.” This program affords volunteers the opportunity to participate in real archaeological excavations with professional archaeologists. This includes historic period sites as well as prehistoric. The website link is: http://www.passportintime.com/.

There are some Washington State Parks that are open to metal detecting. Please see the following link for more information: http://www.parks.wa.gov/activities/

Please do not hesitate to contact me if you have any questions about the content of this letter. You can find additional information about archaeology in Washington, as well as the laws regarding archaeological excavations on our website at www.dahp.wa.gov.

Sincerely,



Stephenie Kramer
Assistant State Archaeologist
(360) 586-3083
[email protected]
 
That is very interesting and I am sure many states have similar statutes but these agencies have little to no way to enforce them. I am not advocating going against this at all. These statutes were created because of people who abused the system and were not thoughtful and respectful detectorists/hobbyists. It is unfortunate that people have robbed historic sites of "treasures" in the past, but it has been going on since the Middle Ages when the Europeans stole relics from the Holy Land and it is not likely to stop in the future. I understand historic relics and preservation but I don't see why they would get bothered about finding coins that circulated and there are no specific historic ties to them unless you find something extremely rare.

What attracted the email must have been your comments regarding coins and relics and searching for older items and older properties. I am amazed they are monitoring Craigslist and, no doubt, other websites as well. In fact they may be viewing this thread right now.
 
It's key words that people use Relics,Historic,artifacts.They monitor ebay when it come's to selling arrowheads,war items etc,can't use the words dig etc you have to say surface finds.Won't be long before they check forums like this one.It's sad,there'a lot bigger fish to fry ,then a lone MDer looking for coins.There big on going after bottle diggers here.
 
To be quite honest, Stephanie is not a legal authority, nor is she even a higher up in the archaeological society. Threatening you or posing possible penalties outside of a legal setting is not legal in itself. Recovery of coins on private property as far as I know is not and has not ever been in the hands of the state to mandate. Indian artifacts however are, no matter their location. 50 years also sounds like a rather modern time span to be worried about "Historical artifacts" 100 years is more likely, so be sure to check your local laws outside of contacting her. In NJ it's 100 years and older, but only on state owned land. Private property has no such legalities.

I'm not saying shrug it off and keep pursuing your ad, but at least learn up on your local laws in case a problem does arise. Archaeologists, at least in my state, are blowhards. They are very anal, not very friendly, hostile even at times when they feel someone is impeding on "THEIR" turf. I stopped recently to ask a few questions about a recently opened archaeological site near me, a 1700's Tavern site, and the 2 guys there looked at me like I was nuts and wouldn't even respond to any of my questions, and I was just being friendly. I'd say be careful, be cautious, be mindful, and be detecting while doing so lol.... keep at it!!
 
It's key words that people use Relics,Historic,artifacts.They monitor ebay when it come's to selling arrowheads,war items etc,can't use the words dig etc you have to say surface finds.Won't be long before they check forums like this one.It's sad,there'a lot bigger fish to fry ,then a lone MDer looking for coins.There big on going after bottle diggers here.
i see what you mean by the key words. i did a search for "relics" on my local CL and my add was right at the top. I may need to reword my add so it doesnt draw any unwanted attention. it is truely sad that other people have given us detectorists a bad rap causing problems like this for the good guys (and gals). the way i see it is I follow the MDCE (metal detecting code of ethics) and IF i came across anything that i felt was of historic significance, i would be sure to cease digging in that area and contact the appropriate person. Its just blows me away that the "Assistant State Archaeologist" has nothing better to do than bother hobbyists such as myself that are simply trying to find new areas to detect.
 
Your right when you say that the assistant state archaeoloigists have nothing better to do then bother a lone MDer.One of the reasons is there state and fed funding is drying up do to cuts in there budget,so instead of being in the field doing there jobs there sitting behind there desks monitoring Craiglist & other websites.What if you were going to MD a 50 yr old junkyard think she would want to go with you?
 
The best way to seek permission is to knock on doors and you won't get letters like this...
 
Ridiculous. She can't tell you what you can do on someones private yard, such BS. I would shrug it off. Reply courteously, but still go about your business.
 
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I believe in following all laws.....but on this topic I'd be tempted to tell them to put it so far "where the sun don't shine" that by the time it ever saw the light of day it would qualify as a historic relic by their own definition. Or at least I'd think that....without saying it. :p
 
its kinda funny, in her letter she stated "Items over 50 years old, produced or modified by humans, below the surface of the ground and submerged under water, are archaeological objects. Archaeological objects, and archaeological sites and resources, are protected resources under state statutes."
However, on their website that she told me to check out (www.dahp.wa.gov) i was checking out some definitions.

(8) "Archaeological object" means an object that comprises the physical evidence of an indigenous and subsequent culture including material remains of past human life including monuments, symbols, tools, facilities, and technological by-products.

(9) "Archaeological site" means a geographic locality in Washington, including but not limited to, submerged and submersible lands and the bed of the sea within the state's jurisdiction, that contains archaeological objects.

I see nothing that states that archaeological objects are over a certain age (i.e. 50 yrs old)
 
Ask Stephanie if the sewer and water lines that have been buried for more than 50 years are "archelogical sites" now too.
That's rediculous.
 
If your on Private property with permission they can stick it in there ear!:lol:
 
this kind of thing really sets me off!!!!
if they want to arrest or fine me for hunting/digging private land then i wish them luck. I will NOT be told what I can and cant do on private land (especially my own). Im not saying that I wouldn't follow the wishes of the owner of a piece of property that isnt my own; just that the fed/state needs to find more productive things to do with time/money that is allotted them through donations and or tax money.
 
this kind of thing really sets me off!!!!
if they want to arrest or fine me for hunting/digging private land then i wish them luck. I will NOT be told what I can and cant do on private land (especially my own). Im not saying that I wouldn't follow the wishes of the owner of a piece of property that isnt my own; just that the fed/state needs to find more productive things to do with time/money that is allotted them through donations and or tax money.
i agree 100%. i have been tempted to write her an email voicing my opinion about this complete waste of hers and my time, but that would be a long nasty letter and i figure that would just be another waste of time, plus i really dont want to taunt her if she does in fact have some sort of authority (or knows someone that does). i will just edit my craigslist ad so that next time she decides to scour the classifieds for her next victim, my add wont stand out.
 
To be quite honest, Stephanie is not a legal authority, nor is she even a higher up in the archaeological society. Threatening you or posing possible penalties outside of a legal setting is not legal in itself. Recovery of coins on private property as far as I know is not and has not ever been in the hands of the state to mandate. Indian artifacts however are, no matter their location. 50 years also sounds like a rather modern time span to be worried about "Historical artifacts" 100 years is more likely, so be sure to check your local laws outside of contacting her. In NJ it's 100 years and older, but only on state owned land. Private property has no such legalities.

I'm not saying shrug it off and keep pursuing your ad, but at least learn up on your local laws in case a problem does arise. Archaeologists, at least in my state, are blowhards. They are very anal, not very friendly, hostile even at times when they feel someone is impeding on "THEIR" turf. I stopped recently to ask a few questions about a recently opened archaeological site near me, a 1700's Tavern site, and the 2 guys there looked at me like I was nuts and wouldn't even respond to any of my questions, and I was just being friendly. I'd say be careful, be cautious, be mindful, and be detecting while doing so lol.... keep at it!!

I think some sort of reply is needed since you said you will respond to all emails. If it is not legal to threaten or pose possible penalties outside of a legal setting, I would remind her of that. Be sure of that fact first. Respond in a professional and polite manor that maybe the "law" wasn't passed to go after a MDer popping out the occasional wheat penny and rusty old bottle caps that may or may not be "50 years old"

Silence only empowers them.
 
That reminds me of my county's metal detecting permit for hunting county parks: anything over fifty years old is supposed to be turned in to the county, and they provide the law and penalties for not doing so.

I'd just ignore them as far as hunting private yards.
 
Maybe you need to bundle up a bag of 50 year old trash (nails, rusty bottle caps, wire, ect.) and send it to them. Tell them that you found it and are turning it over to them to study.
 
Let it go...

I suggest you delete your Craig's list ad or dumb it down to a very generic listing and DO NOT RESPOND to any email from the A.S.A. as you could be traced via your IP connection to your computer for archival purposes. Any email contact with a governmental official is considered a public document.

Please don't go there...
 
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