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  #41  
Old 09-14-2021, 10:43 PM
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Looks like I'm the naive one here.

I really did think that site was primarily about doing good deeds as a metal detectorist, not turning a profit.

I guess I was wrong.
I'm not naive about the ring finders at all. I went metal detecting with a ring finder guy a couple of years ago. He only wanted to go to spots that might have gold rings. I took him to a spot that could have gold rings, but 1700's cannonballs were found in the area as well. When I told him to pay attention to iron signals, he just looked at me like I was crazy. He obviously had gold fever and zero appreciation for something as historical as a 1700's cannonball. Safe to say, we never went detecting together again.

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  #42  
Old 09-14-2021, 11:40 PM
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Originally Posted by mh9162013 View post
....There's a reason that many companies sell products and services using two payment schemes. I think such a scheme could/should apply to Ring Finders. ...
Everything you're saying "rolls off the tongue" in a perfect world. I mean, who would argue with "fairness" ? Which of us doesn't balk at the guy who is making "obscene profits" and thus "should charge us less".

You're thinking that the RF system could be modeled differently: For a sliding scale. Ie.: a scale for "those that are only wanting to help for fun and charity. And perhaps won't charge much (or would charge nothing). And perhaps aren't super skilled, etc...". Versus the professional (like scuba detective) with the most advanced gear, experience, and thus ... makes more at recoveries & $$.

If I understand you, you're saying that RF could give a listing free to the back-woods small-town charity type beginner guy. Yet charge for the big-business-model professional experienced md'r guy . Right ? After all, in your mind's eyes, the web-design RF guy is making "big bucks". So he should have a sliding scale for the smaller-fry guys. Right ? Who can argue with this "more fair system"? Right ?

So let me give you a real world example, if I can continue with the street sweeper business analogy : We have jobs that are super easy. And have lots of stand-by time. Eg.: Sweep for 15 minutes, but then have to wait on the sidelines for other equipment doing their thing for an hour. Then sweep 5 minutes, and the park again for an hour wait. Needless to say, this is GREAT for our equipment's wear and tear. Fuel consumption way down. Bearings hardly getting hours. Brooms not wearing down, etc....

Contrast to other jobs, where it's non-stop, all night, where the engine is never off, the brooms always spinning and wearing down. Thus more overhead on this type job.

Yet we charge the same hourly rate for each job. REGARDLESS of the wear and tear on the unit . I have sometimes thought about making a lower rate exception, if we get called out to the former "easy" work. Since my overhead costs are lower.

But I never succumb to the temptation (to "be fair") to do that. Because I know exactly what will happen next : There will be perpetual baby-sitting to determine exactly which side of the fence each job sits on. Or a customer who gripes that my hourly rate fluctuates. Or perhaps he thinks his job should be the lower rate , while my driver insists that he hardly stopped all night long.

In other words, it will become a baby-sitting nightmare. So too would the RF guy have a ton of baby-sitting to do, if he had to sit there and make perpetual judgement calls about "who's a professional" vs the "little guy" who should get it for free, etc.....

There comes a time, in business, where it doesn't matter how much profit you're getting: You still set a price, and .... that's it. A store that sells a millionaire a loaf of bread, is selling it for the same price that the poor guy pays. EVEN IF the grocery store is highly profitable. Otherwise, it becomes a constant chore to sit there and hear the shopper's laments of "I'm poor" or "I'm rich", or ....whatever.
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  #43  
Old 09-14-2021, 11:46 PM
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Originally Posted by FreeBirdTim View post
I'm not naive about the ring finders at all. I went metal detecting with a ring finder guy a couple of years ago. He only wanted to go to spots that might have gold rings. I took him to a spot that could have gold rings, but 1700's cannonballs were found in the area as well. When I told him to pay attention to iron signals, he just looked at me like I was crazy. He obviously had gold fever and zero appreciation for something as historical as a 1700's cannonball. Safe to say, we never went detecting together again.
This has nothing to do with the RF business model. This is strictly an observation about hunting styles. Some guys, like that, are strictly not relic mindset hunters. They prefer to look for coins. Or rings. Or strictly like beach, or turf, or nuggets, etc....

What you're referring to is only a factor of types of detecting . Not to do with the RF business model .

PS: Yes, I too would not like to hunt with someone at a great relic spot, that doesn't appreciate green copper, flat buttons, lantern parts, a cannonball, etc..... If all they care about is "only if they find coins" (or rings), then obviously they're not of the relic mindset. Maybe they'd be fun hunt mates on the beach. But not at a colonial cellar hole or stage stop or whatever.
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  #44  
Old 09-14-2021, 11:52 PM
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Originally Posted by FreeBirdTim View post
Gee, the way their site is set up, I thought all these guys were doing it out of the kindness of their hearts. So it's just a money making scam? What a surprise! I never would have guessed that! Lol!
Freebird, you're joking , right ?

Why can't people do stuff to be kind (the fun of the hobby, the desire to help, etc...), yet also make money ? Why is it, that if someone is paid, that it's immediately a "... Money making scam" ?

Remember 2 things can be true AT THE SAME TIME : Ie.: you can do stuff to be nice and help, but gee.... also get paid. They need not be contradictory concepts.
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  #45  
Old 09-14-2021, 11:57 PM
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I don't think it would be as difficult to implement as you think, Tom.

They could set it up where it's like a ridesharing app. The customer has his or her payment info on the website/app, then its gets charged automatically a base fee when the ring finder arrives on site. Then the rest of the fee gets paid after the hunt.

I don't think the real problem would be differentiating b/w professionals and hobbyists. The real problem is keeping the parties involved in any transaction from using cash or some other "off the books" payment method. Perhaps that's why they use their current payment/business model, I don't know. But there are ways around this.

Some companies, like eBay and Upwork, face this problem and have special website software or w/e in place that catches people who try to take communications offline. So any exchange of cell phone or email information is largely prevented, with all communications taking place through the app or website. And if a dectorist or customer violates these terms, they're banned from the site. This isn't that big of a deterent for a customer, as they're not likely to use the site that often. But for a professional detectorist who relies on the Ring Finders website for repeat business? Yeah, it'll be a strong deterrent. And it should't be that hard to review website and payment analytics to spot people who are using the site for profit (as opposed to as a hobby), then get paid offline instead of through the website.

But maybe the owner(s) of the website don't feel it's worth this hassle...fair enough, they can do what they want. But I think it's discouraging the hobby-level detectorists from using the site. But as some people here have strongly hinted or implied, Ring Finders isn't about doing good deeds, it's about making money.

And your bread example isn't analogous. What woud be analogous is charging someone the partial price of a loaf of bread before they're even allowed into the store. Then once in the store and checking out, they pay the remaining balance for the bread. And if they decide not to buy bread, they don't get their partial payment back (I assume the $65 Ring Finder fee is nonrefundable?)
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  #46  
Old 09-15-2021, 12:35 AM
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Originally Posted by mh9162013 View post
I think the crux of this argument is about how the Ring Finders website is viewed.

Most of you guys seem to view it as a grocery store - in existence to make money by selling food. In contrast, I thought it was more like a food bank, in existence to do good for a community through the act of distributing food. Both entities have every right to exist and operate with their current organizational models.

If it really is more grocery store than food bank, then yes, my thoughts on their pricing scheme will be tempered a bit. I still think they can have a two-tired pricing scheme, though...
That is a decent view. Look Chris the owner I think thatís his name has spent tons of hours promoting the hobby and has done hundreds of returns for no cost. His cost is basically a yellow page ad like Tom stated. And that is hands down the best comparison to this as there is.

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  #47  
Old 09-15-2021, 12:56 AM
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Originally Posted by mh9162013 View post
I don't think it would be as difficult to implement as you think, Tom.....
Well, it's been a fascinating conversation. If you think it's not difficult, then you could start up a site with sliding scales, and all sorts of pre vs post-pay systems. Go right ahead. I've emailed Chris and brought his attention to this thread.

BTW : There HAS been some system, which was TOTALLY free. Ie.: someone (or as a subsection of one of the md'ing forums) did set up a pin-board , where you pin your location. And theoretically persons in need of help can go there, click on your pin, and contact you for help. FREE FREE FREE to float your shingle there.

So what's not to love, eh ? However, it failed to get traction. Because without someone to invest in tech skills, it fails to rise to the top of the google hit list typical-word-searches. Versus RF, which studied it in-depth, and coached all the subscribers endlessly to how they keep their page profile up (document successful posse hunts, key-words to use, etc...). So that it will be the top hit, knowing the typical words that customers will tend to type.

This is ingenuity that .... if you just create a directory page, and then walk away, will not succeed. Like to create a competitive page to Ebay or CL, (lower fees, more fair, etc...) you can come up with all sorts of wonderful ideas of better systems. But if you just get the page to a hosting service, and walk away, it will fail.

But if you still disagree, then by all means : A) don't pay $65, and B) make a better competitive system.
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  #48  
Old 09-15-2021, 01:03 AM
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Why can't people do stuff to be kind (the fun of the hobby, the desire to help, etc...), yet also make money ? Why is it, that if someone is paid, that it's immediately a "... Money making scam" ?

Remember 2 things can be true AT THE SAME TIME : Ie.: you can do stuff to be nice and help, but gee.... also get paid. They need not be contradictory concepts.
Nothing wrong with getting a tip for your act of kindness, but it should never be expected. The quote about making "10-100 fold" is what irked me. Makes it seem like that's the only reason they do it.

I've been paid to find property markers, but that seems different to me. It's not an act of kindness, it's a job. Taking something that should be an act of kindness and turning it into a job seems wrong to me. The website gives you the illusion that it's just a bunch of nice guys trying to help people out, when in reality it's a bunch of guys "reserving" their area so they have a monopoly on looking for lost rings. The whole concept of that site leaves me with a negative view of metal detectorists, which is the last thing we need...

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  #49  
Old 09-15-2021, 02:26 AM
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Originally Posted by FreeBirdTim View post
...The website gives you the illusion that it's just a bunch of nice guys trying to help people out, when in reality it's a bunch of guys ..
Then maybe the problem is not with the RF website. Maybe the problem is with your perception/illusion ? Because I am not getting the illusion you're getting. I do not come away from it thinking it casts them as "not nice guys ", in the first place.
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  #50  
Old 09-15-2021, 07:08 AM
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New guy here.....my .02 cents.
It's his business model. If you align yourself with his tactics, then pay the money.
If you don't align yourself yourself with his tactics, there's nothing stopping you from not joining, or even starting something on your own.
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  #51  
Old 09-15-2021, 07:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Tom_in_CA View post
Well, it's been a fascinating conversation. If you think it's not difficult, then you could start up a site with sliding scales, and all sorts of pre vs post-pay systems. Go right ahead. I've emailed Chris and brought his attention to this thread.

BTW : There HAS been some system, which was TOTALLY free. Ie.: someone (or as a subsection of one of the md'ing forums) did set up a pin-board , where you pin your location. And theoretically persons in need of help can go there, click on your pin, and contact you for help. FREE FREE FREE to float your shingle there.

So what's not to love, eh ? However, it failed to get traction. Because without someone to invest in tech skills, it fails to rise to the top of the google hit list typical-word-searches. Versus RF, which studied it in-depth, and coached all the subscribers endlessly to how they keep their page profile up (document successful posse hunts, key-words to use, etc...). So that it will be the top hit, knowing the typical words that customers will tend to type.

This is ingenuity that .... if you just create a directory page, and then walk away, will not succeed. Like to create a competitive page to Ebay or CL, (lower fees, more fair, etc...) you can come up with all sorts of wonderful ideas of better systems. But if you just get the page to a hosting service, and walk away, it will fail.

But if you still disagree, then by all means : A) don't pay $65, and B) make a better competitive system.
Just because I disagree with the owner of Ring Finder, doesn't mean I want to run his/her business.

I don't understand why that's so hard to understand.

I don't like how eBay is changing its business model to push out smaller sellers. So in order to express my opinion, I need to start my own online auction site? I've already stopped using them. But that doesn't mean my displeasure has to stop there; I can still express my opinion.

You think I'm wrong. Fine. Guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.
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  #52  
Old 09-15-2021, 11:04 AM
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Maybe the problem is with your perception/illusion ?
Nothing wrong with my perception of the site. It is what it is, good or bad. We'll have to agree to disagree on this one, Tom.

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  #53  
Old 09-15-2021, 11:14 AM
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Originally Posted by LeftHandSwinger View post
Nice article on metal detecting in a local online news source today. The writer did a good job covering this man and his passion. The only thing that wasn't mentioned was the Metal Detecting Code of Ethics and the fact that the man is detecting on Ocean Beach in San Francisco which is in the federally protected Golden Gate National Recreation Area (GGNRA). I know people detect here all the time, without issue. But at least cover the Code of Ethics to give the new hobbyist some insight to follow.

https://www.sfgate.com/local/article...P-CP-Spotlight
Great article! Good read!

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  #54  
Old 09-15-2021, 11:27 AM
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Originally Posted by FreeBirdTim View post
Nothing wrong with getting a tip for your act of kindness, but it should never be expected. The quote about making "10-100 fold" is what irked me. Makes it seem like that's the only reason they do it.

I've been paid to find property markers, but that seems different to me. It's not an act of kindness, it's a job. Taking something that should be an act of kindness and turning it into a job seems wrong to me. The website gives you the illusion that it's just a bunch of nice guys trying to help people out, when in reality it's a bunch of guys "reserving" their area so they have a monopoly on looking for lost rings. The whole concept of that site leaves me with a negative view of metal detectorists, which is the last thing we need...
The majority of RFs work on a "what you can afford basis" but not all. Some make a pre-arranged agreement prior to the hunt. I think the site is good and the people on it are do gooders. Of course there have been some bad apples that eventually get weeded out. But you are correct FBT , that many here in So.Cal "reserve" their zip to corner the market. I think some of this is unfair since some of these areas are far from their actual location and that other locals could handle them. But these guys locked in years ago when the site 1st started , oh well.

Your irked because some guy makes a profit , say 10x-100x ? Get over it. Nothing wrong with making say a grand for everything you put into something. Some guys down here actually do this for a living. Take what the market will bear. My friend has done many for free.

Maybe your RF friend would have a hard time doing a 1700s cannonball return 🤣, But you
knew this going in. He's a RF , he searches for gold and jewelry. He could careless about iron. But this was( to me) an obvious jab at THE KOB for me calling you out on the other thread that you aren't a gold hunter , you skip over signals a few points either way of nickels , etc. Which you never responded. That's ok though. You are into relics , history , etc. I respect that. I'm into those things too. But since I grew up on the beach , I prefer gold.

Around 25 years ago , before the RFs was around I remember seeing this on the beach : 2 guys wearing black tshirts on the beach that said " lost items ? $10" then a phone #. I thought that was ingenious , but I only saw them 1 other time before they disappeared. So there's an idea for some of you thinking about a new gig. But.....you might have to....bust out $20 for a shirt...lol
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  #55  
Old 09-15-2021, 11:58 AM
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Originally Posted by mh9162013 View post
......I don't like how eBay is changing its business model to push out smaller sellers. So in order to express my opinion, I need to start my own online auction site?.....
Uhhhh, yes. That's called "putting your money where your mouth is".

Originally Posted by mh9162013 View post
..... But that doesn't mean my displeasure has to stop there; I can still express my opinion....
Yes. Sure. You can express your opinion. And your OPINION is that : They're doing it wrong. And you have got a better & fairer, idea.

So what's wrong with us saying : "Go ahead !" . You (or someone else) go right ahead and do the better model. Go ahead and don't pay the fees.
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  #56  
Old 09-15-2021, 12:11 PM
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Originally Posted by KOB View post
.... that many here in So.Cal "reserve" their zip to corner the market....
While that might sound, ... uh .... "colonial" or un-fair (ie.: why can't multiple persons still have first dibs on a zipcode ?), yet : There's a rhyme & reason for this :

It's no different than the old school days of metal detector dealers : If someone wanted to sell (out of their garage) Garretts, Whites, Fisher, etc...., they had to choose a geographic zip-code locale range. Otherwise, the poor sap who set up his detector sales shop, is simply competing with the other guy across town. Same with Toyota dealerships: Why don't you see multiple show-room floors, of Toyotas, in the same town ? The "brand" simply has to have consistency.



Originally Posted by KOB View post
... I think some of this is unfair since some of these areas are far from their actual location and that other locals could handle them...
I'm sure that the RF model would , indeed, like to fill-in-the-map and have persons in these unclaimed zip codes. So : Go ahead and claim some !
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  #57  
Old 09-15-2021, 12:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom_in_CA View post
Uhhhh, yes. That's called "putting your money where your mouth is".

But that doesn't apply in all situations, especially those where someone is expressing his or her disagreement with something.

I don't like how an MLB pitcher uses his sinker on an 0-2 count. So unless I'm an MLB pitcher, I can't complain about the pitch selection?

I don't like how a member of Congress votes. So unless I win a congressional election, I have to keep my mouth shut?

I don't like how a local restaurant messed up my order. So I have to become a food server, chef, etc. to make a complaint?
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Old 09-15-2021, 12:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom_in_CA View post
While that might sound, ... uh .... "colonial" or un-fair (ie.: why can't multiple persons still have first dibs on a zipcode ?), yet : There's a rhyme & reason for this :

It's no different than the old school days of metal detector dealers : If someone wanted to sell (out of their garage) Garretts, Whites, Fisher, etc...., they had to choose a geographic zip-code locale range. Otherwise, the poor sap who set up his detector sales shop, is simply competing with the other guy across town. Same with Toyota dealerships: Why don't you see multiple show-room floors, of Toyotas, in the same town ? The "brand" simply has to have consistency.





I'm sure that the RF model would , indeed, like to fill-in-the-map and have persons in these unclaimed zip codes. So : Go ahead and claim some !
Try explaining that theory to Starbucks. 1 on every corner.
Um..those beach zips have been taken for awile now. Nor do I have the desire. Unless they paid me to represent ! I do quite well on my own thank you.
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  #59  
Old 09-15-2021, 05:28 PM
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Originally Posted by mh9162013 View post
... someone is expressing his or her disagreement with something...
Correct. You are more-than-welcome to express your disagreement with someone else's business model. You've been doing that here, no problem.

Originally Posted by mh9162013 View post
.... I can't complain about the pitch selection?....
Sure you can. And it will be replete with the insinuation/implication of : "I could have done better". But sure: Complain away.

Originally Posted by mh9162013 View post
.... I have to keep my mouth shut?...
You can complain about politics. We all do. Go ahead and keep complaining.

Originally Posted by mh9162013 View post
.... So I have to become a food server, chef, etc. to make a complaint?
Here's the best solution in this case: Complain, and then : (drumroll) : Go to a different restaurant. Right ?
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  #60  
Old 09-15-2021, 05:30 PM
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Originally Posted by KOB View post
Try explaining that theory to Starbucks. 1 on every corner.
.....
And do you know why there's a Starbucks on every corner ? Easy : Because there's oodles of customers lined up and waiting to patronize each location. If that demographics is true, then sure: Flood each zip code with this service/product.

But , the same can't be said of md'rs services . Can it ? In my zipcode, for example, I appear to be the closest "pin" for the surrounding 50 mile radius. And I'll bet that I only get a call every other month or so. Hence, ... uh ... no comparison to endless stream of Starbucks business/needs.
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