Friendly Metal Detecting Forums   Quality Metal Detectors
List all sponsors

Go Back   Friendly Metal Detecting Forums > Metal Detecting > General Hobby Discussion

Reply
  
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #21  
Old 06-17-2022, 07:51 PM
Tom_in_CA's Avatar
Tom_in_CA Tom_in_CA is online now
Elite Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 17,331
Default

Originally Posted by jhanson View post
As someone who has spent a considerable number of years enforcing laws, I can tell you that the modern intent of lost and found (or theft of lost/mislaid property) laws is exactly this. No LE agency that I have ever encountered expects anyone who finds unidentifiable obviously lost property to turn it in. It is strictly to keep unscrupulous people who would take advantage of unattended property, or latch on to property that might have been proceeds of another persons crime. It's also to eliminate a defense against possessing stolen property by claiming ignorance of the original crime.
Great post jhanson. And thank you for your service.

Yes, the *only* time a literal reading of the law would be invoked, is when some criminal trots out those lines as "reasons why he didn't turn it in to L&F". Or reasons why he's walking down the street with a stolen brand new Iphone, etc....

So in order to close the loop-holes, the law MAKES NO LOOPHOLES NOR VARIABLES. Otherwise, EVERY CROOK would be latching on to the loopholes. And LEO's could never get their job done .

So this is one of those things where if you asked-enough-lawyers "Can I ?", they would be forced to give you the technical answer. Yet *reality* is far different. We know full well (as do LEOs) that ....... seriously now.... no one who's lost their ring years ago is still looking for it. Nor will they ever be checking daily at the police station, etc....
Reply With Quote


  #22  
Old 06-17-2022, 08:36 PM
Bajanick's Avatar
Bajanick Bajanick is offline
Elite Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: So. Cal.
Posts: 1,789
Default

There is nothing unethical about keeping anything you find, your not commiting a crime, you did not steal them and nobody in a million years are going to claim those rings, you would be wasting your time turning them in.

If you or your wife feel so distraught that you have to satisfy your conscious (unnecessarily) by turning them in then go ahead, again, you will just be wasting time.

Sure, if I knew who they belonged to, I would absolutely return them. I would take them right to the owner myself.

__________________
Using Minelab Equinox 600
Miccus Phones, Garrett ProPointer, 6" Coil
Predator tools-Models 58 & 85B
Retired Detectors- Whites M6,MXT

Reply With Quote


1 members found this post helpful.
  #23  
Old 06-17-2022, 10:19 PM
jhanson's Avatar
jhanson jhanson is offline
Supporter
 
Join Date: Feb 2022
Location: NE Illinois
Posts: 443
Default

Originally Posted by Tom_in_CA View post
Great post jhanson. And thank you for your service.

Yes, the *only* time a literal reading of the law would be invoked, is when some criminal trots out those lines as "reasons why he didn't turn it in to L&F". Or reasons why he's walking down the street with a stolen brand new Iphone, etc....

So in order to close the loop-holes, the law MAKES NO LOOPHOLES NOR VARIABLES. Otherwise, EVERY CROOK would be latching on to the loopholes. And LEO's could never get their job done .

So this is one of those things where if you asked-enough-lawyers "Can I ?", they would be forced to give you the technical answer. Yet *reality* is far different. We know full well (as do LEOs) that ....... seriously now.... no one who's lost their ring years ago is still looking for it. Nor will they ever be checking daily at the police station, etc....
Well put, Tom. Always the voice of reason.
Reply With Quote


  #24  
Old 06-18-2022, 10:13 AM
Silverhorse65 Silverhorse65 is offline
Elite Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2020
Location: Iowa
Posts: 661
Default

Originally Posted by jhanson View post
No LE agency that I have ever encountered expects anyone who finds unidentifiable obviously lost property to turn it in. It is strictly to keep unscrupulous people who would take advantage of unattended property, or latch on to property that might have been proceeds of another persons crime. It's also to eliminate a defense against possessing stolen property by claiming ignorance of the original crime.
An excellent synopsis of the intent of the law, thank you!

Originally Posted by BentRod View post
I don't adhere to labels...call it what you like....BTW, I also like to torture fish by catching them and letting them go....
My wife has four fish tanks in the house. Is it more torturous to catch them and release them, or to buy them and keep them in small tanks You see, we can get silly about a lot of things when we take common sense out of the equation. In the interest of full disclosure, I also "catch and release" from time to time

Originally Posted by Bajanick View post
There is nothing unethical about keeping anything you find, your not commiting a crime, you did not steal them and nobody in a million years are going to claim those rings, you would be wasting your time turning them in.

If you or your wife feel so distraught that you have to satisfy your conscious (unnecessarily) by turning them in then go ahead, again, you will just be wasting time. .
A fair analysis Nick. I'm fine with keeping them, given the lack of identifiable marks. In the case of my wife, I don't think it's so much the idea that someone is missing something, as it is, the desire to follow the letter of the law. Of course, we then go down a path where we know unethical governments put unethical laws on the books forcing otherwise ethical people to follow such laws or suffer the consequences.
Reply With Quote


  #25  
Old 06-18-2022, 10:56 AM
Tom_in_CA's Avatar
Tom_in_CA Tom_in_CA is online now
Elite Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 17,331
Default

Originally Posted by Silverhorse65 View post
... we then go down a path where we know unethical governments put unethical laws on the books forcing otherwise ethical people to follow such laws or suffer the consequences.
I don't understand this part of your post ^ ^ In the present topic-at-hand, what's unethical about the L&F laws we are discussing ? They serve a good purpose. So that if you prop up your mountain bike next to the tree in the park, then the next passerby doesn't/can't "find" your bike. The examples are endless.

What's unethical about these laws ?

As far as the "forcing ethical people to follow such laws" (in the case of our hobby & rings) : Take a quick look at the beach section here on this forum. Notice all the gold rings @ show & tell bragging going on. Ok, which of them was "forced" to follow the law ? Obviously none of them.

And there's no LEO or Govt. that's going to care one iota either. Because THEY TOO recognize the *obvious*. That these are things which are long-since-forgotten. And are NOT the same as the "mountain bike propped up next to the tree in the park".

The only time when we md'rs will be expected to ".... follow such laws or suffer the consequences ..." is when you or I go waltzing in to LEO or govt. offices (park kiosks, city halls, lawyers, etc...) asking "Can I ?". THEN you might find someone to cite L&F laws, to arrive at "no". But did they really give 2 sh#ts before you came in with the silly question ? OF COURSE NOT. It was/is a giant case of "no one cared UNTIL you asked".
Reply With Quote


1 members found this post helpful.
  #26  
Old 06-18-2022, 04:49 PM
Silverhorse65 Silverhorse65 is offline
Elite Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2020
Location: Iowa
Posts: 661
Default

Originally Posted by Tom_in_CA View post
I don't understand this part of your post ^ ^ In the present topic-at-hand, what's unethical about the L&F laws we are discussing ?
Sorry Tom, I think you misunderstood. I wasn't talking specifically about MD'ing or Lost and Found laws. I was talking more generally about unethical governments such as Nazi Germany during WWII that either ask or require their citizens to do unethical acts.
Reply With Quote


1 members found this post helpful.
  #27  
Old 06-18-2022, 05:49 PM
Tom_in_CA's Avatar
Tom_in_CA Tom_in_CA is online now
Elite Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 17,331
Default

Originally Posted by Silverhorse65 View post
Sorry Tom, I think you misunderstood. I wasn't talking specifically about MD'ing or Lost and Found laws. I was talking more generally about unethical governments such as Nazi Germany during WWII that either ask or require their citizens to do unethical acts.
Aaahh, ok. Gotcha.
Reply With Quote


1 members found this post helpful.
  #28  
Old 06-19-2022, 11:58 AM
kamogawa kamogawa is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 362
Default

Originally Posted by Silverhorse65 View post
I was fortunate enough in April and May to find three gold rings while dirt hunting over the course of about four to five weeks. They are all quite old and all found in older areas of town deep in the dirt. In other words, they've been "in situ" for quite a while. A signet ring valued $80, a chunky 14k with a CZ stone valued $250, and a 14k with a 1/4 carat diamond valued $200.

My wife is honest to a fault and has been having difficulty with me keeping the ring that has a real diamond. She has pointed out that most States, including Iowa, have laws on the books requiring people to turn in valuables to the police when they are found. Of course, the law here in Iowa does not state a minimal value something should be when turning it in. It does state that you are to turn it in to the county sheriff or city police. They will document and hold onto it for ONE Year. if not claimed, you can reclaim it.

I've explained to her that I have no problem returning a ring if it has enough identifying markers that you could do some research and find out who the owner might be. Something like a class ring with a year and initials, etc. Unfortunately, I've never found something with such identifying markers so have never been fortunate enough to do a "return".

Just wondering if any on here would feel ethically inclined to turn in the rings? My wife, at first, thought the hold time was 90 days. I think the ONE year hold here in Iowa is overboard. I also think that the police have enough to do without documenting and holding such old, lower valued jewelry. I've explained that if it were a fresh drop and obviously worth much more money, I'd have no problem turning it in.

Thoughts? Would you turn in the rings? Would you trust you'd get them back after a year?
Are those the same 1847 laws that say if thou wife places her foot in thine stirrup of husband's horse without permission, state law prescripts that she can be flogged at a time of husband's choosing once the crops have been tended to?

Or that all rings are hitherto and herein to be immediately relinquished to the all-powerful legal-deciding power behind the curtain for him to decided either his left or right pocket to put them into.
Reply With Quote


  #29  
Old 06-19-2022, 12:23 PM
ManInTheWaLL's Avatar
ManInTheWaLL ManInTheWaLL is online now
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2022
Location: Like I would tell you, so you can find the 500 million in Gold before I do!
Posts: 300
Default

Originally Posted by Tom_in_CA View post
3) The police are under no obligation to tell you who claimed it. D/t privacy laws.


I have often thought about doing an experiment with my own wedding ring. And turning it in as "found", and see if I can get it back in 30 days.
Most states have open records laws, there is no privacy in government agencies, with a few exceptions, one being... an ongoing investigation.

Saying you "found" something, that you did not, you could be charged with a crime if some officer found out about your antics. Would the charge stick? dunno.. you may beat the charge, but as the saying goes "You may beat the rap, but you can't beat the ride." And you especially don't want to do this with a federal agent.. who.. could even be a park ranger. False statement charges under 18 USC Section 1001 may be brought when someone makes a ďfalse statementĒ to an agent or agency of the federal government in connection with a federal matter.

Open records laws can be used to your benefit for investigating potential treasure sites... Ask Parada and his attorney!



As with everything... ask yourself WHAT WOULD JESUS DO?
Reply With Quote


  #30  
Old 06-19-2022, 12:57 PM
Tom_in_CA's Avatar
Tom_in_CA Tom_in_CA is online now
Elite Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 17,331
Default

Originally Posted by kamogawa View post
Are those the same 1847 laws that say if thou wife places.....
I think we can all agree that the noble intentions of wandering cattle law L&F laws, don't always have exact similitude comparisons/equivalents to today's culture and situations. Granted.

But if someone asks "can I ?", and gets a bookworm/lawyer to give them the technical answer, then gee ... the laws are still on the books. Not rescinded.
Reply With Quote


  #31  
Old 06-19-2022, 01:01 PM
Tom_in_CA's Avatar
Tom_in_CA Tom_in_CA is online now
Elite Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 17,331
Default

Originally Posted by ManInTheWaLL View post
Most states have open records laws, there is no privacy in government agencies, ...
MITW, I know that the cops won't tell you who a car belongs to, via a license plate #, for instance. Only LEOs can run plates, right ? D/t privacy concerns, right ?

So I can't imagine why they have an obligation to tell you the name and/or contact info for a person to whom picked up their lost ring. Because, what if I'm a nutcase that wants to stalk the person ? Or pester him/her for a finder's fee reward/tip ?

I'm just going by what I was told one time, that LEO's had no obligation to tell you who claimed it. But I'll take your word for it. Perhaps you're right.


Originally Posted by ManInTheWaLL View post
..... Saying you "found" something, that you did not, you could be charged with a crime if some officer found out about your antics. ....
When I mused about doing my subterfuge test (with my own wedding ring), someone in the past suggested that I could get in trouble for that. So again, I'll take your word for it. I'm not planning on doing the test, so ..... it'll be a moot point.

Originally Posted by ManInTheWaLL View post
..... As with everything... ask yourself WHAT WOULD JESUS DO?
Certainly this is not some litmus test that you apply, right ? You were already on record, on 5/31 here, as belittling belief in God. You said that the alternative would NOT be analytical or pragmatic :

Originally Posted by ManInTheWaLL View post
.... I believe in nothing, unless I see it! And yes.. I'm an Athiest! Logical / analytical / pragmatic thinking will do that to you.....
That Jesus fellow was not pragmatic or analytical on your view. So why would you care what he would do ? Me thinks you're just trying to rile others.
Reply With Quote


  #32  
Old 06-20-2022, 03:48 PM
Robert JK Robert JK is offline
New Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2022
Posts: 10
Default

I make every effort to return lost rings. If there is any kind of inscription or identifying wording, I do my own research to see if I can track down the original owner.

I found a class ring a few years ago. It wasn't hard to find the person who lost it. I reached out to them on Facebook and told them I had it and I could mail it or meet them to return it. The kid (college kid) didn't seem too interested in getting it back. He simply replied to me Message "lol, I was wondering what happened to that!" And that was it. I asked him once again if how he's like to go about getting it back and he never replied again.

Thought it was odd, but I guess the ring is now mine.
Reply With Quote


  #33  
Old 06-20-2022, 06:14 PM
JWalker3's Avatar
JWalker3 JWalker3 is offline
Supporter
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Falconer, NY
Posts: 4,829
Default

After I spend hundreds of dollars on equipment, gas, time, etc. i'm keeping anything IO find. The exception to the rule is when I have an agreement with a permission owner.

__________________
E-Trac/ATPro/Pro-Pointer / Bounty Hunter 505 / Mini Sampson 18" T-Handle Shovel / TDK TH-WR700 wireless /Jackson 7-in-1 Versa Planter / Chicago Tumbler / S&W .38
YTD: Still adding it up!, oldest: 1910 Wheat

Reply With Quote


  #34  
Old 06-20-2022, 06:38 PM
Silverhorse65 Silverhorse65 is offline
Elite Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2020
Location: Iowa
Posts: 661
Default

Originally Posted by Robert JK View post
I make every effort to return lost rings. The kid (college kid) didn't seem too interested in getting it back. He simply replied to me Message "lol, I was wondering what happened to that!" And that was it. I asked him once again if how he's like to go about getting it back and he never replied again. Thought it was odd, but I guess the ring is now mine.
There just wasn't much emotional attachment to that ring apparently. His loss is your gain!

Originally Posted by JWalker3 View post
After I spend hundreds of dollars on equipment, gas, time, etc. i'm keeping anything IO find. The exception to the rule is when I have an agreement with a permission owner.
This is one of the few hobbies that can actually come close to paying off, depending on how you choose to go about it Just imagine how much some of those fish or ducks or pheasants actually cost
Reply With Quote


  #35  
Old 06-20-2022, 07:15 PM
OBN's Avatar
OBN OBN is offline
OldCherryPicker
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Maryland
Posts: 9,747
Default

I rarely return gold rings unless the person is right there and ask me to find, or if it has some kind of ID marks and it was lost recently I will make a effort. Rings that have been lost for sometime, which yours sounds like.. I no longer waste my time, too many possible's. I motion, it's a Keeper.

__________________
Blood Member of RingKeepers...

2022.. Gold rings 3 .. Silver 8

Reply With Quote


1 members found this post helpful.
  #36  
Old 06-23-2022, 02:56 PM
Chaznsc's Avatar
Chaznsc Chaznsc is offline
Full Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 102
Default

One alternative here is to be your own detective. Scour Facebook for the location the ring was found (Silly Me Park, Silly Me, SC) using LOST RING or whatever it is you found. Or have someone in that are search for you. I donít Facebook, but most people who do put every excruciating detail of their lives on it. Turning in a generic ring isnít likely to be claimed by the original owner, and after a year, the popo gonna toss it or dispose of it otherwise.
Reply With Quote


  #37  
Old 06-23-2022, 04:45 PM
Silverhorse65 Silverhorse65 is offline
Elite Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2020
Location: Iowa
Posts: 661
Default

Originally Posted by OBN View post
I rarely return gold rings unless the person is right there and ask me to find, or if it has some kind of ID marks and it was lost recently I will make a effort. Rings that have been lost for sometime, which yours sounds like.. I no longer waste my time, too many possible's. I motion, it's a Keeper.
A very rational response.

Originally Posted by Chaznsc View post
One alternative here is to be your own detective. Scour Facebook for the location the ring was found (Silly Me Park, Silly Me, SC) using LOST RING or whatever it is you found. Or have someone in that are search for you. I donít Facebook, but most people who do put every excruciating detail of their lives on it. Turning in a generic ring isnít likely to be claimed by the original owner, and after a year, the popo gonna toss it or dispose of it otherwise.
I think the proposal of doing your own research has merit. Certainly much more merit than just turning it over to the cops, unless it's really expensive and an obvious fresh drop. In my personal case, I'm not into social media other than this Forum so it'd be pretty unfamiliar and pretty time-consuming. Luckily, in my case, I'm relatively certain none of these rings were lost recently.
Reply With Quote


  #38  
Old 06-23-2022, 04:59 PM
Laxsaltman's Avatar
Laxsaltman Laxsaltman is offline
Elite Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: SoCal
Posts: 1,037
Default

I give it an effort if it's a class ring. Only ever found 3 - two golds and one silver.
One gold was a successful return because her name was inscribed on the inside, the other gold there was never a reply despite posting on the lost class rings page that no longer exists and the school's website and one silver ring currently posted on the school's alumni FB page where I'll leave it for a year.

__________________
Since 8-1-2012 $4015.00

:: 277 wheats,8 IH ,178 silver,28 gold :: 2022 $91.22 :: 7 wheats,3 silvers,0 gold :: Personal best finds 1827 Italian States Lire, 1866 Shield nickel, 1887 Seated dime.

Reply With Quote


  #39  
Old 06-23-2022, 06:32 PM
bmattioli's Avatar
bmattioli bmattioli is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Hartford CT
Posts: 4,071
Default

Finders Keepers.. Nuff said!

__________________
USAF Veteran

White's DFX
Minelab E-Trac
Garrett Pro Pointer

Reply With Quote


  #40  
Old 06-23-2022, 08:10 PM
ManInTheWaLL's Avatar
ManInTheWaLL ManInTheWaLL is online now
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2022
Location: Like I would tell you, so you can find the 500 million in Gold before I do!
Posts: 300
Default

Originally Posted by Tom_in_CA View post
MITW, I know that the cops won't tell you who a car belongs to, via a license plate #, for instance. Only LEOs can run plates, right ? D/t privacy concerns, right ?

So I can't imagine why they have an obligation to tell you the name and/or contact info for a person to whom picked up their lost ring. Because, what if I'm a nutcase that wants to stalk the person ? Or pester him/her for a finder's fee reward/tip ?

I'm just going by what I was told one time, that LEO's had no obligation to tell you who claimed it. But I'll take your word for it. Perhaps you're right.




When I mused about doing my subterfuge test (with my own wedding ring), someone in the past suggested that I could get in trouble for that. So again, I'll take your word for it. I'm not planning on doing the test, so ..... it'll be a moot point.



Certainly this is not some litmus test that you apply, right ? You were already on record, on 5/31 here, as belittling belief in God. You said that the alternative would NOT be analytical or pragmatic :



That Jesus fellow was not pragmatic or analytical on your view. So why would you care what he would do ? Me thinks you're just trying to rile others.
The license plate # has nothing to do with privacy. the LEADS computer they use to find out the license plate # is a Government computer, and should they use that for private use, that is theft of services. They have charged cops for this, running license plates on women, etc.

They are by law required in most states to give you the police report. If a report was made, or any records made on who picked it up, they have to release it to you. Sometimes they redact phone#'s, sometimes they don't. They are suppose to redact SS#'s. There are some exceptions, autopsy photo's, law enforcement officers addresses, etc. Varies by state. Any material they receive, evidence, possessions, must be documented going in and out. Unless it's part of an ongoing investigation, its open for view. This isn't Russia or China, you really do have rights.


What if.. hypothetical gets you no where. What if,,, he has a gun, he could shoot someone. So, take everyones guns away?

TIP of the day, law enforcement officers are not attorneys, nor experts on the law. They idon'thave to be, they have qualified immunity, and can do about anything and get away with it, that and the law enforcement unions are very strong. But never argue with a cop on his turf, only argue in a court room.

Reference my signature line, about questions about me!

__________________
😀 🤣Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss me.😀 🤣
I've seen my own death in dreams like this and it's helped me appreciate life more. I've also seen my own life in dreams and it's helped me appreciate death more.

Reply With Quote


Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:47 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.