Friendly Metal Detecting Forums   Owl Engineering
List all sponsors

Go Back   Friendly Metal Detecting Forums > Metal Detecting > War Relic Hunting

Reply
  
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #121  
Old 08-10-2021, 05:38 PM
davidlhyde63366's Avatar
davidlhyde63366 davidlhyde63366 is offline
Supporter
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: O`FALLON MISSOURI
Posts: 2,254
Default

Several other lost treasure tales https://www.govmint.com/coin-authori...reasure-hoards i know Tom-in-CA looks forward to seeing these

__________________
Fisher F4 , Bountyhunter Treker IV ,BH discovery 3300, Whites TRX pinpointer, finds mostly clad nothing worth posting , just retired at the end of 2017 ,so hope I can spend a lot more time detecting in the future. Collect Philippines coins as a hobby


Last edited by davidlhyde63366; 08-10-2021 at 06:11 PM.
Reply With Quote


1 members found this post helpful.
  #122  
Old 08-10-2021, 06:27 PM
Tom_in_CA's Avatar
Tom_in_CA Tom_in_CA is online now
Elite Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 15,688
Default

Originally Posted by davidlhyde63366 View post
There are a lot of diffrent accounts ....

David, the key phrase here is : "... lots of different accounts..."

Well .... SURE ! There's lots of different treasure stories. And ... sure.... ALL of them have a "treasure" in them. But this all just assumes that the "accounts" are necessarily true, in the first place.

Don't get me wrong, ALL of them seem "iron clad true" . Of unaccounted-for wealth. But when you start UN-raveling them (asking "says who ?", or "how do we know that ?") THEN you begin to sniff out the "he said she said" speculations.

But once this gets passed through the telephone game, then .... no one ever questions it. It's just taken as fact that $$ is missing. And even *if* someone can find a period citation of movement of $$, they are not seeking more plausible and innocent explanations. They just ASSUME missing. Thus buried and hidden, etc.... Since, after all, that's much more fun to think about treasure. No one wants to be "left out", so we put critical thinking aside.

An example: I had a family that was very certain that their grandfather had buried $$ under the house, in the crawl space. I was commissioned to come over, scuttle under the house, and look for it with my metal detector. And the entire time, in preparation for this, they are regaling me with the history of how grandpa had lots of silver he had collected, that, .... at the time of his death, was un-accounted for. And for some reason (hints he had left ?), they speculated it was under the house.

And sure enough, I found some buried jars, filled with trinkets and modern stuff. No silver.

So I began to quiz them more on the possible outcome of the wealth they had known their grandfather to have. And one by one, OTHER plausible outcomes arose. They acknowledged that, in the year before his death, he had inexplicably bought a new car, as a high school graduation present, for one of his grandkids. So NOW the new speculation was, that he had merely cashed in a bunch of silver (perhaps retrieving it from under the house), to get $$ for things like this. Hence: No longer hidden.

So you see, as adamant as people can be, and as salacious as stories can sound, there is often innocent and more plausible explanations why, let's face it, treasures do not exist.
Reply With Quote


1 members found this post helpful.
  #123  
Old 08-10-2021, 06:29 PM
Tom_in_CA's Avatar
Tom_in_CA Tom_in_CA is online now
Elite Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 15,688
Default

Originally Posted by davidlhyde63366 View post
.... i know Tom-in-CA looks forward to seeing these

Not
Reply With Quote


2 members found this post helpful.
  #124  
Old 11-22-2021, 05:14 PM
davidlhyde63366's Avatar
davidlhyde63366 davidlhyde63366 is offline
Supporter
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: O`FALLON MISSOURI
Posts: 2,254
Default The curse of civil war gold

A lost Civil war treasure story / https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4G7ie9p8J0

__________________
Fisher F4 , Bountyhunter Treker IV ,BH discovery 3300, Whites TRX pinpointer, finds mostly clad nothing worth posting , just retired at the end of 2017 ,so hope I can spend a lot more time detecting in the future. Collect Philippines coins as a hobby

Reply With Quote


  #125  
Old 11-22-2021, 10:40 PM
atomicbrh atomicbrh is offline
Full Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Central MS
Posts: 234
Default

Originally Posted by Tom_in_CA View post
Not
Gold and currency had to be accounted for even in the 1800's. An example was the Washington Artillery. One of the few Confederate units with no money problems. They outfitted themselves with the finest cannon, uniforms and accoutrements at the beginning of the war.
The Washington Artillery comprised of wealthy businessmen from New Orleans started out with a chest full of gold coins to buy what they needed as the army travelled along. The trouble was that toward the end of the war there was nothing left to buy even if you had money. They returned home with money left in the chest. Bottom line just like Tom says: huge amounts of money just doesn't disappear in most cases to be found years later.
Reply With Quote


2 members found this post helpful.
  #126  
Old 11-23-2021, 12:47 PM
Tom_in_CA's Avatar
Tom_in_CA Tom_in_CA is online now
Elite Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 15,688
Default

Originally Posted by davidlhyde63366 View post
A lost Civil war treasure story / https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4G7ie9p8J0
I'm sorry, but I could only watch 3:26 of that. Couldn't stomach any more. Reached for the off-switch as fast as I could.

Once they made a big to-do about having found a "Confederate silver coin " (as their clue/proof), I couldn't take any more. Heck, I found 2 of those this weekend, and a 3rd even older than that ! So does this mean that I'm on the verge of a fabulous treasure ?

Stop torturing me Dave!
Reply With Quote


1 members found this post helpful.
  #127  
Old 11-24-2021, 09:46 AM
davidlhyde63366's Avatar
davidlhyde63366 davidlhyde63366 is offline
Supporter
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: O`FALLON MISSOURI
Posts: 2,254
Default

Originally Posted by Tom_in_CA View post
I'm sorry, but I could only watch 3:26 of that. Couldn't stomach any more. Reached for the off-switch as fast as I could.

Once they made a big to-do about having found a "Confederate silver coin " (as their clue/proof), I couldn't take any more. Heck, I found 2 of those this weekend, and a 3rd even older than that ! So does this mean that I'm on the verge of a fabulous treasure ?

Stop torturing me Dave!
O, but it is so much fun Tom

__________________
Fisher F4 , Bountyhunter Treker IV ,BH discovery 3300, Whites TRX pinpointer, finds mostly clad nothing worth posting , just retired at the end of 2017 ,so hope I can spend a lot more time detecting in the future. Collect Philippines coins as a hobby

Reply With Quote


1 members found this post helpful.
  #128  
Old 11-25-2021, 06:53 PM
Pete e Pete e is offline
Full Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Location: North Wales, UK
Posts: 216
Default

Originally Posted by Tom_in_CA View post
Despite the SCORES of treasure legends afloat out there (Lost Dutchman, Yamashita, Oak Island, pearl ship, blah blah blah) you NEVER hear of any of them being found. Despite many that go looking.
So do any of these legends have any factual basis of the treasure actually existing? Or do you know for anything similar stories you think might be credible?

I think there are some very credible ones from WW2, such as the missing Amber Room and the art masterpieces that were known to have been stolen/extorted/acquired by the Nazi's but we're never recovered after the war....Add to that the various stories of lost Nazi gold, some of which have a known historical basis and I think our European treasure hunting friends have a lot of potential on their door steps...
Reply With Quote


  #129  
Old 11-25-2021, 07:27 PM
Tom_in_CA's Avatar
Tom_in_CA Tom_in_CA is online now
Elite Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 15,688
Default

Originally Posted by Pete e View post
So do any of these legends have any factual basis of the treasure actually existing? ...
Originally Posted by Pete e View post
.... some of which have a known historical basis and ,...
Here is the logical problem with what you are alluding to, in this leading & suggestive question :

Let's just cut-to-the-chase: ALL TREASURE LEGENDS have "factual basis" and "historic basis". In other words, they have real names, dates, and events. Right ? In other words, none of them ever started with: "Once upon a time" Right ? So we can start with real names, dates, and events, and spin a treasure around it.

So you might be thinking : "Then it's just a matter of sorting out fact from fiction" to arrive at the truth.

But this fails to account for a giant "Gotcha" : If there is no treasure, then WHAT GOOD WILL IT DO that the other 99% of the story is true ?

This, for example, is what cracks me up about the Oak Island bruhaha : Notice that whenever people debate it, they start debating things like : Was, or was their not, shipping in that region that could have carried $$ ? Can or can't a pit be dug with hand tools to a certain depth. Was or wasn't there a motive in Europe by the Freemasons, Jesuits, etc... Or "Can or cant' coconut fiber float across the entire ocean ", blah blah blah.

As if to conclude that : If the proponents can substantiate that 99% of the story (via extreme unlikely contingencies) that there HAS to be a treasure. But this does not logically follow.

Let me give you an example: Back in the 1970s, a buddy of mine submitted a treasure story to one of the treasure magazines of that era (back when they were all filled with "lost mine" and "stolen loot" stories). The entire story was made-up fancy. But he started with faded newspaper clippings, real names, dates, and events. Toss in a few: "It has been said that..." type speculations (to introduce a treasure), then PRESTO: It must be true, eh ? So if you go to separate fact from fiction of my friend's story, you WILL INDEED find that the persons really existed. The historical events really occurred (a battle, or a robbery, or a gold strike town's originating date, etc...).

He did this just for fun, and to get the $50 article acceptance pay.

But you can sort fact from fiction till you're blue in the face: If there's no treasure THEN THERE'S NO TREASURE. And it DOESN'T MATTER than 99% of the story is true.
Reply With Quote


  #130  
Old 11-25-2021, 07:32 PM
atomicbrh atomicbrh is offline
Full Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Central MS
Posts: 234
Default

If a story is too good to be true, it is almost always not true.
Reply With Quote


1 members found this post helpful.
  #131  
Old 11-26-2021, 09:49 AM
Pete e Pete e is offline
Full Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Location: North Wales, UK
Posts: 216
Default

Originally Posted by Tom_in_CA View post
Here is the logical problem with what you are alluding to, in this leading & suggestive question :

Let's just cut-to-the-chase: ALL TREASURE LEGENDS have "factual basis" and "historic basis". In other words, they have real names, dates, and events. Right ? In other words, none of them ever started with: "Once upon a time" Right ? So we can start with real names, dates, and events, and spin a treasure around it.

So you might be thinking : "Then it's just a matter of sorting out fact from fiction" to arrive at the truth.

But this fails to account for a giant "Gotcha" : If there is no treasure, then WHAT GOOD WILL IT DO that the other 99% of the story is true ?

This, for example, is what cracks me up about the Oak Island bruhaha : Notice that whenever people debate it, they start debating things like : Was, or was their not, shipping in that region that could have carried $$ ? Can or can't a pit be dug with hand tools to a certain depth. Was or wasn't there a motive in Europe by the Freemasons, Jesuits, etc... Or "Can or cant' coconut fiber float across the entire ocean ", blah blah blah.

As if to conclude that : If the proponents can substantiate that 99% of the story (via extreme unlikely contingencies) that there HAS to be a treasure. But this does not logically follow.

Let me give you an example: Back in the 1970s, a buddy of mine submitted a treasure story to one of the treasure magazines of that era (back when they were all filled with "lost mine" and "stolen loot" stories). The entire story was made-up fancy. But he started with faded newspaper clippings, real names, dates, and events. Toss in a few: "It has been said that..." type speculations (to introduce a treasure), then PRESTO: It must be true, eh ? So if you go to separate fact from fiction of my friend's story, you WILL INDEED find that the persons really existed. The historical events really occurred (a battle, or a robbery, or a gold strike town's originating date, etc...).

He did this just for fun, and to get the $50 article acceptance pay.

But you can sort fact from fiction till you're blue in the face: If there's no treasure THEN THERE'S NO TREASURE. And it DOESN'T MATTER than 99% of the story is true.
Tom,

Chill a little! I am not trying to pull your chain or anything! lol

I was not trying to ask leading or illogical questions...I was asking whether you think any of the legends or stories you know of have any merit...ie you think there could be a missing treasure in certain particular instances???

As way of examples I mentioned the Amber Room...it is a historical documented fact this existed, that it was dismantled in WW2 and then went missing while being shipped to "safety."

Regards,

Peter
Reply With Quote


1 members found this post helpful.
  #132  
Old 11-26-2021, 10:47 AM
atomicbrh atomicbrh is offline
Full Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Central MS
Posts: 234
Default

Originally Posted by Pete e View post
Tom,

Chill a little! I am not trying to pull your chain or anything! lol

I was not trying to ask leading or illogical questions...I was asking whether you think any of the legends or stories you know of have any merit...ie you think there could be a missing treasure in certain particular instances???

As way of examples I mentioned the Amber Room...it is a historical documented fact this existed, that it was dismantled in WW2 and then went missing while being shipped to "safety."

Regards,

Peter
Yes. The amber room did exist but after the various moves during World War 2, the bombing of Königsberg and the fragility of the artifacts as documented by the Russians who found that it was too crumbly to move and tried to hide it behind wall paper, the room probably deteriorated to junk ready for the dumpster. There was no solid gold in the room. There was some gold leaf backing but mainly amber a cheap, soft gemstone easily damaged at a Mohs of 2 to 2.5. Due to these known historical and scientific facts, the room most likely no longer exists and thus cannot be "found". The Russians did complete a reproduction for public viewing in 2005. I guess just to prove they had the wealth and crafty expertise to do it.
Reply With Quote


1 members found this post helpful.
  #133  
Old 11-26-2021, 01:16 PM
Tom_in_CA's Avatar
Tom_in_CA Tom_in_CA is online now
Elite Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 15,688
Default

Originally Posted by Pete e View post
.....I was asking whether you think any of the legends or stories you know of have any merit...ie you think there could be a missing treasure in certain particular instances???...
Peter, OF COURSE there are treasures that have been found, and treasure that will be found in the future.

But as you know: This factoid does not lend credence to a notion that: "Therefore, we should give positive speculation about any treasure story that comes down the pike".

Then you switch from "legends" and "stories" (both plural), to a singular story: The Amber Room. I fear that what will happen, when any two people begin to talk about a specific singular legend's proofs, will be exactly as my prior rant said :

It will devolve into the skeptic (myself in this case) pointing to what I feel are more-plausible-explanations, to the various individual components . To which the faithful believers will understandably pushback with their refutations to whatever I've brought up. Eg.: "Yes it is possible to kill all the witnesses." blah blah.

And it will end up being a cat & mouse game that amounts to : As long as the faithful can find SOME REMOTE EXTREME way, that a series of dominoes *could* have fallen, and can continue to spin the "just so" story, with the *could have happened* evidence, then it's as if THAT ALONE is proof that a treasure is there.

So you see, that's no different than Oak Island. Where the debaters end up squaring off over whether or not 100 slaves, working for 10 yrs, could have dug these elaborate flood tunnels @ 100 ft. deep. Or whether coconut fiber could or couldn't have stayed buoyant on an ocean voyage. As long as it's special Malaysian variety, blah blah But no one's ever asking themselves : "Wait a minute, who even said there was a treasure here in the first place ?"

So too would it probably be if I tried to study and spar over this particular Amber Legend. And If it never turns up, that never means it's not there. It just means "a little more to the right", "a little more to the left", "a little deeper", and so forth. So they become impossible to disprove.

In fact, the burden-of-proof isn't on the skeptics to DISprove it , in the the first place. The burden of proof is on the proponents to prove it is. And this is not an impossible standard. For example, the hunt for the Atocha has proofs that went beyond campfire legend ghost-story stuff. So too might the Amber room gig.

I just don't know, because I haven't studied this particular yarn. But as you can tell, I would apply all sorts of kill-joy skepticism, and seek for "more plausible explanations". Because it's human nature to fall for these lores (without apply critical thinking), because : No one wants to get left out. So a wise treasure -seeker looks for more plausible explanations, so as to save his time for the real worthy ones to chase.
Reply With Quote


  #134  
Old 11-26-2021, 01:27 PM
Tom_in_CA's Avatar
Tom_in_CA Tom_in_CA is online now
Elite Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 15,688
Default

Originally Posted by atomicbrh View post
.... the room most likely no longer exists and thus cannot be "found". .....
oh my gosh, how can you be such a kill-joy ? Don't you know that the proponents can push back against every skeptical point that you made ? With extreme contingency "what ifs" that you will be required to play wack-a-mole with ? Tsk tsk

If everybody was a Debbie-downer like you, no one would ever look for or find treasures. Tsk tsk

Reply With Quote


1 members found this post helpful.
  #135  
Old 11-26-2021, 01:58 PM
davidlhyde63366's Avatar
davidlhyde63366 davidlhyde63366 is offline
Supporter
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: O`FALLON MISSOURI
Posts: 2,254
Default

Originally Posted by Tom_in_CA View post
oh my gosh, how can you be such a kill-joy ? Don't you know that the proponents can push back against every skeptical point that you made ? With extreme contingency "what ifs" that you will be required to play wack-a-mole with ? Tsk tsk

If everybody was a Debbie-downer like you, no one would ever look for or find treasures. Tsk tsk

So Tom are you saying people should look for Yamashita’s gold the treasure the Japanese hid in the Philippines during world War 2

__________________
Fisher F4 , Bountyhunter Treker IV ,BH discovery 3300, Whites TRX pinpointer, finds mostly clad nothing worth posting , just retired at the end of 2017 ,so hope I can spend a lot more time detecting in the future. Collect Philippines coins as a hobby

Reply With Quote


  #136  
Old 11-26-2021, 02:15 PM
Tom_in_CA's Avatar
Tom_in_CA Tom_in_CA is online now
Elite Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 15,688
Default

Originally Posted by davidlhyde63366 View post
So Tom are you saying people should look for Yamashita’s gold the treasure the Japanese hid in the Philippines during world War 2
You are cruel. Much too cruel
Reply With Quote


1 members found this post helpful.
  #137  
Old 11-26-2021, 03:27 PM
davidlhyde63366's Avatar
davidlhyde63366 davidlhyde63366 is offline
Supporter
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: O`FALLON MISSOURI
Posts: 2,254
Default

Originally Posted by Tom_in_CA View post
You are cruel. Much too cruel

__________________
Fisher F4 , Bountyhunter Treker IV ,BH discovery 3300, Whites TRX pinpointer, finds mostly clad nothing worth posting , just retired at the end of 2017 ,so hope I can spend a lot more time detecting in the future. Collect Philippines coins as a hobby

Reply With Quote


  #138  
Old 11-26-2021, 03:41 PM
Pete e Pete e is offline
Full Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Location: North Wales, UK
Posts: 216
Default

Originally Posted by atomicbrh View post
Yes. The amber room did exist but after the various moves during World War 2, the bombing of Königsberg and the fragility of the artifacts as documented by the Russians who found that it was too crumbly to move and tried to hide it behind wall paper, the room probably deteriorated to junk ready for the dumpster. There was no solid gold in the room. There was some gold leaf backing but mainly amber a cheap, soft gemstone easily damaged at a Mohs of 2 to 2.5. Due to these known historical and scientific facts, the room most likely no longer exists and thus cannot be "found". The Russians did complete a reproduction for public viewing in 2005. I guess just to prove they had the wealth and crafty expertise to do it.
I used the Amber Room as an example because it's a factual documented case of a "lost" treasure from relatively modern times. Does that make all similar stories factual? Of course not...

From a treasure hunting perspective, would I invest time and money looking for the Amber Room? No, (not because it never existed, because it did) but rather because like you i suspect it was destroyed.

Sadly, Tom is so cynical about all these treasure stories, that he can't answer a simple question which is are there any specific stories/legends he feels could be credible?
Reply With Quote


1 members found this post helpful.
  #139  
Old 11-26-2021, 05:06 PM
Tom_in_CA's Avatar
Tom_in_CA Tom_in_CA is online now
Elite Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 15,688
Default

Originally Posted by Pete e View post
... are there any specific stories/legends he feels could be credible?
Yes. The Atocha, before-it-was-found, was one that was above cynicism , and was credible. And there are others.

Amber room might be one of them. But after reading atomicbrh's input on that, I'd be tempted to immediately say "nah". My immediate instinct is to believe the skeptic's view (like atomicbrh's here) before believing the proponent's affirmative view.

And the reason is: That it's ALWAYS human nature to *want so hard* to believe them . They're so much fun (let's be honest) And thus put skepticism and hard questions aside.

Hence the mere fact that "more plausible explanations" have been floated, leads me to think "the heavy lifting skepticism has been done. And I'll bet ya dollars to donuts, that that's the real skinny". But that's just me.

Naturally, when it comes to the Amber room, I'm only addressing the issue of "Is it worthwhile to look for it now". Not "did it ever exist at any time".
Reply With Quote


  #140  
Old 11-26-2021, 05:32 PM
Pete e Pete e is offline
Full Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Location: North Wales, UK
Posts: 216
Default

Originally Posted by Tom_in_CA View post
Yes. The Atocha, before-it-was-found, was one that was above cynicism , and was credible. And there are others.

Amber room might be one of them. But after reading atomicbrh's input on that, I'd be tempted to immediately say "nah". My immediate instinct is to believe the skeptic's view (like atomicbrh's here) before believing the proponent's affirmative view.

And the reason is: That it's ALWAYS human nature to *want so hard* to believe them . They're so much fun (let's be honest) And thus put skepticism and hard questions aside.

Hence the mere fact that "more plausible explanations" have been floated, leads me to think "the heavy lifting skepticism has been done. And I'll bet ya dollars to donuts, that that's the real skinny". But that's just me.

Naturally, when it comes to the Amber room, I'm only addressing the issue of "Is it worthwhile to look for it now". Not "did it ever exist at any time".
Although I do not have a huge interest in lost Treasure or treasure hunting as such, I will watch the odd treasure hunting program/series...

For the most part I have enjoyed Oak Island for instance, but I am far from convinced there is anything of great value to be found; it's just entertainment, chewing gum for the eyes as my old fella would have said. However they do find some interesting artifacts and I enjoy watching the scientific analysis carried out on some of them...I confess it was watching Oak Island that motivated me enough to buy a metal detector about 4 years ago, not really to find ££££treasure items but to search for historic artifacts...
Reply With Quote


1 members found this post helpful.
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:37 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.