Target Masking Question

ToddB64

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Georgetown, Ohio, USA
Hi Everybody ! :tiphat:

Is it possible to orient a metal detector coil to enable hunting coins and jewelry close up to metal Basketball Poles, Tot-Lot Equipment Legs, Chain-link Fences around Baseball diamonds, etc., without the coil signals being attracted and bending toward these large structures, thus masking those good target signals ?

As you can see by my signature below, I have four different metal detectors, but the one I have been using in Parks and Tot-Lots is the Tesoro Compadre with the 5.75 coil and single control knob for Discrimination.

I've thought about this, but to me it appears that any coil orientation I can think of will still allow the coil signals from the top, bottom or edge of the coil to be attracted to the structures mentioned and cause masking of any possible good targets.

Returning to my opening question, bearing in mind that I'm using my Compadre, can anyone answer the question ?

:thankyou: in advance for your help !

ToddB64
 
I use a Compadre with a 7 inch coil and the sense turned up to max internally.
Mine will signal if I get within a foot away from these big metal objects, but I never have a problem with this stuff because as you pass by the big metal with a regular side to side sweep pattern there will always be a loud and distinct double beep if there is another target in the vicinity.

You can try to disc out the big metal, if possible, and listen for the other targets, but you will miss really small gold right next to these poles if you do.
I always use all metal in most situations hunting with the Compadre for the greatest sensitivity and depth, and definitely in all the tot lots I hunt.

I have found coins and tiny pins within 1-2 inches of these big metal objects this way, and once, I found a coin about 4 inches directly under a huge 5 inch diameter bar in the tot lot chips.
That one surprised me.
I have been to tot lots that have been cleaned out but still found huge amounts of good targets close to the big metal because whoever was hunting these sites evidently could not get near to these like I could with the Compadre.
This is a prime reason most call the Compadre the "Tot Lot King".
There is no masking in this situation, and nothing can hide from this little wonder if you really know how to use it.

This also works with my Vaquero and my F2...usually a double beep, but it is not quite as distinct on the Vaq with my big coils, and even a little less so on my F2 with the 8 inch coil, but it is still there if you listen and sweep at the right speed.

Some say with regular detectors if you go straight in and very slow these good targets could show up, but my Compadre in the tot lots makes it easy with that double beep and regular swing 100% of the time.

Bury a coin near one of these big pieces of metal and try it.
 
Garrett has a sniper coil for that.

There is a sniper coil on the newer Compadres, already, and I have one for my F2, also.
Nothing I have tried or heard of or have seen on any detectors with sniper coils on youtube videos will signal as loud and clear right next to this big metal with this double beep as a Compadre.
Slingshot has both the 250 and sniper coil and a Compadre.
I think he will agree.

Might have something to do with the older circuitry in this model.
It has true 180 degree expanded discrimination, and it does not have the "low noise/high gain" circuitry for max depth like a lot of the modern detectors.
 
DIGGER27,

Thanks a bunch for your posts #2 and #4 on the subject thread !

I gather the solution is to (a) leave the coil in the normal plane, i.e. parallel to the ground, (b) using the ALL Metal (No Disc.) setting, or perhaps setting the Disc. knob at a point to just reject a nail laid on the ground as suggested by Monte V. Berry at AHRPS (c) a regular side-to-side sweep pattern close to the big metal objects, and (d) listen for that "double-beep" from any targets that might be in the ground.

Since I don't want to void the warranty on my Compadre, I will not be tweaking the Sensitivity pot inside, so hopefully the factory setting will be sufficient to trigger a distinct double beep if there is another target in the vicinity.

I will try your suggestion of burying a coin near one of the big pieces of metal and practice until I can hear the "double-beep"......thanks, that's a good idea !.........Why didn't I think of that ? :facepalm: :lol:


In your post #4 you said " There is a sniper coil on the newer Compadres, already ". Is that the 4" Round Concentric(COIL-4RC-SW) (S) $89 + $6 for the coil cover, listed under Coils–Standard (µMax models) on the Tesoro Official Website, or are you referring to the 5.75 solid concentric coil as being a sniper coil ? I would have to check where I got this, but someone told me that the 5.75 isn't really a sniper-class coil, but rather a transitional coil between a true sniper, i.e. 3" to 4" coils and larger coils.

Thanks again DIGGER.......you've been a big help !

ToddB64
 
I consider that 5.75" coil a sniper coil because it is so small.
Maybe the wrong term, but it lets you hunt with surgical precision next to big metal and in an around trash with superior sensitivity, so that would be my definition of a sniper coil even though it is a little larger than 4".

I have read other owners that have not had any mods done to their modern Compadres say that double beep is there for them at factory settings, too.

Just a normal, level sweep near these large objects should let you find targets right next to them with that tell-tale double beep.

As far as hunting techniques, I have gotten used to hunting in all metal to find all objects and then thumbing that disc to figure out the target type in the grass because I believe I get the deepest that way.
Also, that setting the knob thing to just reject a small iron nail should work for most targets...but I found it won't work for absolutely all of them depending on the depth of the target.
This really thin chain clasp will come in fine at those settings within an inch, but will disc out below that nail-reject setting at 3 inches in depth.
So far, I have never been lucky enough to find any form of gold just laying on the surface.





In tot-lots it is definitely all metal all the way and I dig absolutely everything that beeps for a couple of reasons besides the one above.
1. For the privilege of hunting these spots, I try to give back by cleaning them up of all metal targets that could be dangerous at shallow depths for the kiddies.
Not only have I found larger and rusty iron nails and screws, I have found plenty of really tiny pieces of sharp rusty iron splinters laying right on top, just in, or just under those chips, and other trash that is similar.
If a kid falls down they have a good chance of sticking themselves with one of these hazardous items in their hands if they are unlucky.

2. I tend to come back to these tot-lot sites again and again since they reload over time, and the cleaner I get it first time through, the easier it is to find recent drops the next time.
 
Hi DIGGER27 ! :tiphat:

Your post #6 is really good and thanks for the time & info. you put into it.

I'll be practicing your suggestions with my Compadre over the next few days at a nearby park with two tot-lots.

I'll report back on the results.

ToddB64
 
Garrett has a sniper coil for that.

Hi BeachMDer !

Thanks for the tip ! Yes, KellyCo has them on sale now for $72.20 + 4.33 tax = $ 76.53 Total. This is the 4.5" Ace Sniper for the Ace 150, 250 and 350.

First, I'm going to try DIGGER27's methods posted in this thread. Maybe I can get the desired results using my Compadre with the 5.75" coil.

ToddB64
 
DIGGER27,

I try to analyze things logically, which is to say, step-by-step, or to use another analogy, link-by-link in a chain, to reach a correct conclusion. But admittedly, my conclusions are not always correct, because I was missing an important fact, in other words, a "link" in the chain of information.

So in all fairness to you, I''m prefacing my questions below, keeping the above in mind.

For reference, I have copied two statements from your posts in this thread, as follows:

Post #2, paragraph two:
I always use all metal in most situations hunting with the Compadre for the greatest sensitivity and depth, and definitely in all the tot lots I hunt.

Post #6, paragraph four (with video):
As far as hunting techniques, I have gotten used to hunting in all metal to find all objects and then thumbing that disc to figure out the target type in the grass because I believe I get the deepest that way.

From the above statements, I gather that AM mode is more sensitive and goes deeper than Disc. mode. So for example, if you find a target in AM mode, (first question): how could you use the less-sensitive and shallower depth range of the Disc. mode to scan a target that is beyond the sensitivity and depth range of Disc. mode, to figure out the target type ? (second question): Therefore, in order to scan that target, wouldn't the AM and Disc. modes have to be equal in sensitivity and depth ?

It's been raining, so I haven't been able to try out your suggestions yet.

Looking forward to your reply, so I can better understand before going to the park.......hopefully soon !

Thanks again for your help :ewink:

ToddB64
 
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If you do some air testing, you will find that there is a limit to the range of the scanning field on your Compadre.
All of them seem to be different for some reason, some might go a little further than others.
Don't ask me why, but they do.
The only one you have to be concerned with is yours.

If you turn the disc up all the way to the right, then take a dime, wave it in front of the coil and keep moving back till it starts to break up.
Mark that spot.
Then turn the knob all the way to the left into all metal.
Wave that dime again at the marked spot.
It should be a much clearer signal, and you should be able to wave that dime a little further back and still pick it up.

The more disc you use, the less depth you will get.
This is a rule that covers most VLF detectors on the market .

So this is my thinking....
If I am in a tot lot, I am going to hunt in all metal to take advantage of the greatest amount of sensitivity for two main reasons.
1. To get the deepest I can because there might be something good but small and deep in those chips and I want my best chance of reaching it.
2. There might be a very small target that I want to pick up like a tiny gold ring or a small clasp on a thin chain like the one in the video.
In that video I was in all metal and I didn't show it, but that 3 inches max I picked up that clasp turns out to be less than 3 inches as I turn up that disc.
Even turning up the disc to iron I lose a little depth, and in a tot lot with a higher percentage of jewelry that is likely to be found...why take the chance?

All metal and dig everything in a tot lot is my rule, and unless there is a ton of small iron that I don't feel like digging that day, (I WILL go back and do that another time if that happens...but that is rare), well, I am going to dig everything and clean that place up the best that I can.

Now lets switch to hunting in grass.
I still hunt in all metal so I can acquire the strongest signals that I can, then I thumb up that knob up till it fades out, and then down till it comes back in and check the position of that knob.
I find that this will give you a more accurate reading than thumbing up till the signal fades out like the manual says.
Some guys set the knob at a certain level and dig everything above that level that beeps.
Me, I like to make guesses and try to figure out what is there before I dig.
That's just my way of learning.
By hunting in all metal, I can get signals on targets I wouldn't even know were there if I was using any disc at all.


It has been said that about 90% or more of the good coin and jewelry targets we seek are 6 inches or less in depth.
That is great, but that is not 100%, and if my Compadre will get past that 6 inch mark in all metal, I am going to use it that way as much as possible.

Let's say I am in an older park, I am hunting with the disc knob around iron, or foil, or tabs, or maxed out.
Also lets say I happen to roll over a 1916 D Mercury dime but it is sitting right at the very edge of detecting field in all metal.
With any disc at all, I probably would not even hear this signal.

As a matter of fact, there is a good chance that these deeper targets can actually fool you another way.

Lets say I pick up that Merc as a pretty solid signal because it is sitting at an area that is 1/2 inch below my max depth.
If it was shallow and well within my range, I could thumb that knob all the way up, it will never disc out and I could tell it was a good high tone target I would want to dig.
This time, it is not shallow and I thumb that knob up to figure it out, but because detectors lose depth and sensitivity as you turn it up, there is a chance that this great target will actually disc out...and maybe disc out way before I get all the way up to the max disc point .
Maybe it goes away at the zinc level instead, or tabs or even nickel or foil.
If it fades out, (or in my case comes in), at tabs, I would probably think this is a tab because it acted just like one.
There is a reason they call these kind of units beep and dig, and why a whole bunch of guys that use these do exactly that.
If it beeps, we dig.
I might dig more trash than others because I set my disc lower and pick up more signals, but I have also found my share of great stuff doing it this way, maybe more than my share, and I am fine with my style of hunting.

I have been mostly a dig it all kind of hunter since I started, and no matter what detector I am swinging I usually do that.
Even if I suspect the target is trash because I have dug bad targets in the past and they were not trash...they were good ones.

This scenario of missing a deep Merc I wrote about above is a rare thing, probably...but it could happen.

I am very happy using my Compadre in all tot lots and even in parks because I am usually looking for jewelry and the kind of parks I hit they would most probably be shallow enough to find, and that great sensitivity gives me confidence that I have a chance to find small gold, chains of all types and most rings.
However, if I am at sites where I know there is a possibility of older and deeper coins, or relics or even some deep jewelry, then I pull out my Vaquero which will go deeper than the compadre, even though I lose a little on the sensitivity side between the two.

This is why some people build arsenals of 2-3-4 or more different detectors.
Every site is not the same, and all the targets we seek are not the same either...or sitting in the ground at the same depths.
 
I use a Compadre with a 7 inch coil and the
I have found coins and tiny pins within 1-2 inches of these big metal objects this way, and once, I found a coin about 4 inches directly under a huge 5 inch diameter bar in the tot lot chips.
That one surprised me.

I'll have to try that. But usually all I hear is the signal of large iron within a foot or two of the large metal object.
 
I use a Compadre with a 7 inch coil and the
I have found coins and tiny pins within 1-2 inches of these big metal objects this way, and once, I found a coin about 4 inches directly under a huge 5 inch diameter bar in the tot lot chips.
That one surprised me.

I'll have to try that. But usually all I hear is the signal of large iron within a foot or two of the large metal object.

I hear that too, but swing at the right speed and listen close and you should hear that second beep, also.
 
DIGGER27,

I found another method for locating targets up close to big metal in a post on www.thunting.com, by GoldDigger1950. The method involves tilting the coil. Details can be read in the post and the route is as follows:

After you get on the THunting Home page, click-on the Message Boards button > Metal Detecting board > Sub Boards > Tesoro > Page #3 (page list at bottom) > Topic > "Compadre in tot lots", by CANI, dated April 05, 2010 > Reply#1 "Re: compadre in tot lots", by GoldDigger1950, dated April 05, 2010.

In addition to your method with the Compadre, I'll try GoldDigger1950's also and see what results I get with it.

I'll report back after my next trip to the park and tot lots.

ToddB64 :waiting: for the rain to stop !
 
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DIGGER27,

I found another method for locating targets up close to big metal in a post on www.thunting.com, by GoldDigger1950. The method involves tilting the coil. Details can be read in the post and the route is as follows:

After you get on the THunting Home page, click-on the Message Boards button > Metal Detecting board > Sub Boards > Tesoro > Page #3 (page list at bottom) > Topic > "Compadre in tot lots", by CANI, dated April 05, 2010 > Reply#1 "Re: compadre in tot lots", by GoldDigger1950, dated April 05, 2010.

In addition to your method with the Compadre, I'll try GoldDigger1950's also and see what results I get with it.

I'll report back after my next trip to the park and tot lots.

ToddB64 :waiting: for the rain to stop !

Yea, I read that one awhile ago.
http://www.thunting.com/smf/tesoro/compadre_in_tot_lots-t13198.0.html;wap2=

For me, it doesn't seem to work as well as keeping the coil level...I can always pick up and notice that double beep.
Also, he stated this...
"And by the way, the bigger coil is much too sensitive along the edge to do anything near a pole."

If he is talking about coils the size of my 7"...this does not seem to be correct.
If you look at this picture below of one of my hunts at 2 different sites, recently, notice that Halloween pumpkin ring on the left.

This target was picked up within 2 inches of a large pole in a tot lot about 6-7 inches deep.
I believe it is zinc, but it disced out way before zinc...closer to iron.
A scratchy signal, but because I hunt in all metal I was able to find it.

Also, he states this...
"I read all the time where people try to increase their output power to get better depth but they really can't do much better than they can from the stock design. It's all a matter of physics. But they keep trying and, while doing so, have some real fun."

Physics, schmysics...mine is turned way up and I have found some pretty deep stuff at solid signals that I don't believe I could have picked up quite as solid if at all at factory settings.
 

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Since you have the Ace already, I would get the sniper coil. Use the top part of the coil and low sensitivity and you can almost touch the poles. It's the only reason I still have the Ace. It's the only coil I use anymore. And I have found coins next to pulltabs in the coins mode with it. As well as nickels and dimes next to each other-both giving the different tones.:cool:
 
DIGGER27,

Thanks for your replies (Posts #10 and #15) and all the work you put into them !

Post #10 is really good and helped me to better understand how you are using the AM and Disc. modes.

Happy trails ! :money:

ToddB64
 
Since you have the Ace already, I would get the sniper coil. Use the top part of the coil and low sensitivity and you can almost touch the poles. It's the only reason I still have the Ace. It's the only coil I use anymore. And I have found coins next to pulltabs in the coins mode with it. As well as nickels and dimes next to each other-both giving the different tones.:cool:

Hi slingshot47 :wave:

I appreciate your suggestion and may eventually go that route, but money is tight right now, so I'm going to try DIGGER27's methods using my Compadre and see how that works out.

The Garrett Ace Sniper coil does give me pause for thought however. :hmmm:

ToddB64
 
I use a Compadre with a 7 inch coil and the sense turned up to max internally. Mine will signal if I get within a foot away from these big metal objects, but I never have a problem with this stuff because as you pass by the big metal with a regular side to side sweep pattern there will always be a loud and distinct double beep if there is another target in the vicinity. You can try to disc out the big metal, if possible, and listen for the other targets, but you will miss really small gold right next to these poles if you do. I always use all metal in most situations hunting with the Compadre for the greatest sensitivity and depth, and definitely in all the tot lots I hunt. I have found coins and tiny pins within 1-2 inches of these big metal objects this way, and once, I found a coin about 4 inches directly under a huge 5 inch diameter bar in the tot lot chips. That one surprised me. I have been to tot lots that have been cleaned out but still found huge amounts of good targets close to the big metal because whoever was hunting these sites evidently could not get near to these like I could with the Compadre. This is a prime reason most call the Compadre the "Tot Lot King". There is no masking in this situation, and nothing can hide from this little wonder if you really know how to use it. This also works with my Vaquero and my F2...usually a double beep, but it is not quite as distinct on the Vaq with my big coils, and even a little less so on my F2 with the 8 inch coil, but it is still there if you listen and sweep at the right speed. Some say with regular detectors if you go straight in and very slow these good targets could show up, but my Compadre in the tot lots makes it easy with that double beep and regular swing 100% of the time. Bury a coin near one of these big pieces of metal and try it.

Hi Digger27 :tiphat:

With reference to your above post, where you say "as you pass by the big metal with a regular side to side sweep pattern", I buried my 14K gold ring approximately 4 inches down in damp wood chips and about 4 inches away from a big metal object (Tot Lot equipment 2-2½ pipe leg), used my new Compadre with the 5.75" coil and set in AM mode, but I wasn't able to get a real loud and distinct signal from the ring. I was wearing RatPhones Max head phones (definitely not cheapies !) with the individual ear cup volume controls turned up halfway, which is my normal volume setting. Didn't think I would need to raise the volume to hear a loud and distinct double beep, so didn't.

So, I need to recheck with you on the coil swing. By "regular side to side pattern", I assume you mean swinging the coil in front of the large metal object, starting up close and gradually backing away until no longer getting the signal from the large metal object, while simultaneously swinging about a foot to the left and right passed the large metal object. Also, in order to cover all of the area around the large metal object, the aforementioned method would have to be performed in at least four separate 90° quadrants around the large metal object. Sorry, if I'm getting "carried- away" with details here, but since I'm not hearing the results I expected, I want to make certain I am swinging my coil close to the way you do.

Thanks for your help.

Todd
 
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