Myers Depot Metal Detectors

Frustrating that cities don't keep a list of valuable things people have lost.

NectarDetector said:
Just pointing out the contradiction in your statement

The safe space as you call it is 100% viewable by the public and same people you say you don't want knowing something. ..lol
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You missed the sarcasm, apparently. *cracks up* The whole post was tongue in cheek. :)

Skippy
 
Tom_in_CA said:
A friend of mine who had the cops called on him because, as it turns out, the ring was stolen during a home burglary . And now my friend was suspect for this then-recent robbery. He did a song and dance for the cops explaining that he "found" it. They took it as "evidence". And ... for the next few months, he wasn't sure if the cops were going to repay him a visit or what. And worse yet: The person it belonged to was only a block or two away in his small town. So .... he wasn't sure if he should go over there and introduce and try to "clear up" the matter. It was a big mess.

One time after an entire day of research (phone calls, internet searches, etc....), I tracked down a class ring owner to El Paso TX. After many attempts to get past answering machines, etc... I finally got a person related to the fellow. And got cussed out and hung up on. Turns out, unknown to me, the fellow had died decades earlier in the Vietnam war. So whomever I had reached thought I was just pulling a cruel prank.
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Yep, I've heard you share that story, before. It's why I don't mess with class rings at all. In fact, I've never found any. :)

That other story, where you tracked down the class ring owner... interestingly, this just shows that you were trying to return property that would be classified as Treasure Trove (original owner dead). That's a whole other set of legal conditions... Sad event as a result. :(
 
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Tom_in_CA said:
I highly doubt the police are trolling md'ing forums looking for persons who aren't complying with L&F laws. Sheesk, if any cops ever wanted to do that, they would have a FIELD DAY by simply looking at the show & tell forums of ANY md'ing web-site. Especially beach hunter forums, which tend to be jewelry hunters.

A quick look down the pages of those "found" forums show scores of rings being found daily by hobbyists. Who proudly show their trophies to each other, eh ? If any cop wished to enforce L&F laws, it would be a simple matter of checking each of those to see if those md'rs had promptly gone to the police station or not.

But as you can see, that's not happening.
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They'd still have the burden of proof the objects weren't abandoned... Plus (and this is more to the point), I tried finding any convictions of Lost and Found laws in my state, related to anything metal detecting, and could find NOTHING. This would then, fall into those laws of "unenforced" therefore symbolic.

Looking at several law sites, some more interesting data came up. For convictions to happen, the following condition must be met (burden of proof on the prosecutor):
when a person knowingly and without lawful authority "comes into control of lost, mislaid or misdelivered property of another person...and appropriates that property to his or her own use or that of another person without reasonable efforts to notify the true owner.

That creates another set of interesting conditions. Note the front and back end of that, "Knowingly and without lawful authority" If I have permission to detect a park, and I only keep things that are underground (not lost, but abandoned), AND the city relinquishes responsibility for lost items (leaving it to the finder to take reasonable effort) that whole legal argument goes down in a hurry. The back end of "reasonable efforts to notify the true owner" also are very subjective. Is an ad sufficient? Is asking the concessions person? Is announcing loudly to every one in the vicinity? Is posting a flier on a phone pole? Is tossing it on Craigslit, or just looking on Craigslist enough? Could be why there's no convictions on that for detectorists. If there's reasonable evidence the Police or City don't do anything with the items, isn't it reasonable to assume you can do a better job? Dang hard to prove reasonable... and that would require a court session, and that would require a burden of proof.

I suspect it's used to simply add additional charges to petty theft, and people walking by to pick up stuff in parks and beaches, that are in plain sight.

If I'm at a beach and there's a watch there, and I look around to see if anyone is there, and there's two people... and then I ask, "have you left anything on the ground?" Both say "nope, we've got everything" and then you check with the lifeguard duty station and there's been no claims, and the lifeguard says, "check Craigslist" so you do... I'd consider that pretty reasonable.
That's a hypothetical. I've never found a watch on a beach with a lifeguard who told me to check craiglist, btw... But I could see that scenario happening.

Bottom line is... every one of us park pirates justifies what we do in some way shape or form. It's all grey... and sometimes we're able to get stuff back to owners (great!) and sometimes not (also great!). It's an interesting hobby...

Skippy


Skippy
 
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NectarDetector said:
Likewise :)
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OH!! Got me!! LOL

22d.jpg
 
Skippy SH13 said:
They'd still have the burden of proof the objects weren't abandoned......
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Huh ? The L&F laws don't give wiggle room for whether or not YOU think it was "abandoned". Nor do they "put the burden of proof on police" to prove they weren't abandoned. The laws simply say to turn in items found that are over XX $ value. Right ?

Skippy SH13 said:
... I tried finding any convictions of Lost and Found laws in my state, related to anything metal detecting, and could find NOTHING. This would then, fall into those laws of "unenforced"....
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Great post and thoughts as usual. And I totally agree that if something is un-enforced (in fact, most people and most cops aren't even thinking of them), then ....... obviously ... md'rs will likewise simply disregard them.

This "un-enforced" aspect is EXACTLY why I someone throw out the challange of "give me an example of tickets, jail, etc...." when the subject of md'ing public parks (without groveling for "permission") comes up. Because .... as long as you weren't being a nuisance, you're generally ignored. In the same way as this L&F thing pans out: You'd have to try REAL HARD to "get in trouble" for it.

Skippy SH13 said:
...Looking at several law sites, some more interesting data came up. For convictions to happen, the following condition must be met (burden of proof on the prosecutor):
when a person knowingly and without lawful authority "comes into control of lost, mislaid or misdelivered property of another person...and appropriates that property to his or her own use or that of another person without reasonable efforts to notify the true owner....
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Yes. The laws make perfect sense. Otherwise people could "find" a Mountain bike parked in front of a 7-11. Or "find" wads of cash behind a Brinks armored car and simply say "finders keepers". Or keep wandering cattle, and so forth.

But were such laws ever meant to apply to singular gold rings on the beach that were lost 10 yrs. earlier ? OF COURSE NOT. But could they apply ? Sure.
 
Tom_in_CA said:
Huh ? The L&F laws don't give wiggle room for whether or not YOU think it was "abandoned". Nor do they "put the burden of proof on police" to prove they weren't abandoned. The laws simply say to turn in items found that are over XX $ value. Right ?
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BTW, I'm leaving ethics COMPLETELY out of this.. this is an academic argument only...
The law also says you can't speed, can't take a bath on Sunday, nor beat your wife with a strap bigger than 1" (depending on the state you live in). Just because it's the "law" doesn't mean jack if it's not enforced. It's where it comes down to symbolic (we'd "like" people to do this) versus enforced (people will do this, under penalty). For the law to mean ANYTHING, other than a symbolic gesture, it must be enforced. And on top of it, enforcement requires "enforcement" AND prosecution. If you're charged with something, it doesn't mean you are "convicted." Convictions come after a burden of proof is met. Take speeding. An officer cannot give you a ticket simply because you posted on a forum "I totally was speeding this afternoon." There must be a burden of proof that is reasonable. There has to be some evidence you were speeding. (it WOULD be possible, in the speeding example, to use video... but it's harder to do). The point here is the burden of proof is on the state. The 5th Amendment protects citizens.. we do NOT have to self-incriminate. You do NOT have to plead "guilty" just because someone says, "I saw you pick that up metal detecting, you're guilty of violating lost and found laws." There's more to it than that. Why? Because, first off... stupid laws exist... and so do stupid application of the law. Citizens are protected, and constitutionally, we are (under the LAW) iinnocent until proven guilty, regardless if our actions are cut and dry. It's why GREY areas are finicky. Grey means it's NOT cut and dry, even if you do pick up something in a park that was 2" down. The burden of proof that you broke the law is still on the state.

Now... as for Abandoned. The argument COULD be made in court. That's the thing. A person might get "charged" for something, but that doesn't mean they're guilty of it. The law may be cut and dry, but the judges APPLY the law... And that's where legal arguments are made.

Tom_in_CA said:
Great post and thoughts as usual. And I totally agree that if something is un-enforced (in fact, most people and most cops aren't even thinking of them), then ....... obviously ... md'rs will likewise simply disregard them.

This "un-enforced" aspect is EXACTLY why I someone throw out the challange of "give me an example of tickets, jail, etc...." when the subject of md'ing public parks (without groveling for "permission") comes up. Because .... as long as you weren't being a nuisance, you're generally ignored. In the same way as this L&F thing pans out: You'd have to try REAL HARD to "get in trouble" for it.
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YEP YEP! On this we totally agree.


Tom_in_CA said:
Yes. The laws make perfect sense. Otherwise people could "find" a Mountain bike parked in front of a 7-11. Or "find" wads of cash behind a Brinks armored car and simply say "finders keepers". Or keep wandering cattle, and so forth.

But were such laws ever meant to apply to singular gold rings on the beach that were lost 10 yrs. earlier ? OF COURSE NOT. But could they apply ? Sure.
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Bingo. We are perfectly aligned. The purpose of the law, and the application of the same law are two different things. It's why it drives me batty when a park ranger at the office station pulls the regs and says, "I'm sorry, on Water Reclamation waterways, metal detecting isn't allowed. It says "no metal detecting equipment or excavations"... written in 1960. When Metal detecting equipment was for massive ore removals, not hobbiests looking for coins. And then in the same breath... the same ranger says, "I can tell you I've never heard of a ticket being given out, but that's the LAW."

Weeeeeelllll. that's a completely different scenario, ain't it? I love when people are smart, and understand the PURPOSE of the law is different from "the law."

Smart cops and Rangers. I love em to pieces. Besides that... any detectorist at a beach picking up trash usually gets kudos from the rangers that "get it" anyway. LOL

But hey... it's the law! :)

Skippy
 
Skippy, good reads as usual !

JOFO17 said:
let's hope they never start taxing us for what we find. :shock:
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You mean "enforcing" it, right ? Because *technically* , income is taxable, no matter what the source. Hence *technically*, you are supposed to be listing the income derived from md'ing pursuits. :cool:
 
Tom_in_CA said:
Skippy, good reads as usual !
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Hey Tom, I thought of something last night at 3:30am, when I couldn't sleep.

I realized that many of these "Lost and Found" statutes that are passed in various states are actually quite unenforceable, and there is so much precedence for not turning all objects into the police stations that it's ridiculous.

For example, even in states, like CA and Nevada, where there are very firm Lost and Found laws, requirements to turn in anything over $100 apply to every location within the state, but they do not account for "reasonable efforts to return items" Take for example, every hotel, restaurant, and bar where objects are left behind. Those places hold the objects, for a period of time, until they choose how to dispose of them (some, like the major hotels, probably turn things into the police, but I doubt it in most cases)

If this applies to private property (and it appears to), this also means if you find anything over $100 on your OWN property, that is "lost" you're required to turn it in immediately, as well. And that got me thinking. There's NO WAY the state would actually expect you to physically turn in all those objects.

So I looked up what the law in my state, and sure enough. That is NOT the way the law reads. Not at all.

It's here:
https://legislature.idaho.gov/statutesrules/idstat/title55/t55ch4/sect55-405/

Found personal property. (1) Notwithstanding any other provision of law, any person who finds money or goods valued at one hundred dollars ($100) or more, excepting firearms, explosives or other deadly weapons as identified in chapter 33, title 18, Idaho Code, shall, if the owner of the money or goods is unknown, give written notice of the finding within ten (10) days to the county clerk of the county in which the money or goods were found. Within twenty (20) days after the date of the finding, the person who finds such money or goods shall cause to be published in a newspaper of general circulation in the county a notice of the finding once each week for two (2) consecutive weeks. Each such notice shall state:
(a) A general description of the money or goods found;
(b) The address and telephone number of the county clerk’s office; and
(c) The final date by which such money or goods must be claimed.​
(2) If no person establishes ownership of the money or goods prior to the expiration of three (3) months from the date of the notice to the county clerk, as provided in subsection (1) of this section, the person who found such money or goods shall be the rightful owner thereof.



As I read this, I find that a personal responsibility is NOT to turn in said objects. Not at all! A finder is required by law to provide written notice to the county clerk of the object found, with a description (we do NOT have to "turn it in" according to state law, and then post notice with a general description and wait for claimant to make claim.

So... I called the Clerks office, confirmed they are the "County Clerk," (yes) and then told them about the law, and asked where to send the written notice.

The county clerk's office (County Treasurer) said this (after I explained the law). "Sorry, the County Clerk doesn't handle Lost and Found. You'll have to check with another state agency."

Well, now. Ain't that a pickle.

I can now confirm that I have attempted to contact the Clerk's office to make a notice (no address to send it to, they declined responsibility), and so that leaves option 2 (posting notice in a county periodical on a weekly basis for 2 consecutive weeks... only thing I need to do to meet all I can with the law would be to put notice of 30 days from the time I posted the notice/attempted to make County Clerk notification, that the owner has until then to make the claim...

This just demonstrates the complexity of enforcement. State makes laws, but the infrastructure isn't even setup to handle it. No wonder the city simply said, "it's best if..." rather than give a specific.

There's no mandate to turn into law enforcement agencies. The County doesn't take Lost and Found notices, and the newspaper no longer even HAS lost and found (except for pets.) It's a whole new world, man...

The whole thing is just broken...

So... I'm thinking to keep on like I am. I'll try to find the owners for the objects that are valuable, as best I can, when I can, and the rest... well, it is what it is.

Cheers,

Skippy
 
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Skippy SH13 said:
.... Well, now. Ain't that a pickle. ..
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Just now saw this post Skippy. And that is SO funny that you found that nearly contradictory verbiage. And clerks that have never heard of it. And tell you (despite the clear wording to the contrary) that "they don't handle that". Haha. Great sleuthing work.

But don't think for a MINUTE that you are "off the hook" just because you got one un-informed desk clerk. You must jump through all those hoops for every item you find that exceeds $100 value. You must go higher and higher up the chain of bureaucracy. Consult more lawyers. After all, you "don't want to get a ticket", right ? Abide by the md'r code of ethics EVEN when it's painfully obvious no one enforces or cares or knows about nuances like those. Now hurry, go do the right thing ! :laughing:
 
MrNovice said:
Da fuq?....6 posts in almost 5 years? Thanks for adding SO MUCH to the conversation.

Looking forward to more words of wisdom in your next post come 2018! :laughing:
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Personally, I don't care for spending an inordinate amount of time in front of a computer screen! :cool:
 
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joefont said:
Some of us prefer to be out hunting and doing other things in REAL LIFE rather than spending an inordinate amount of time in front of a computer screen! :cool:
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Holy cow, you've almost doubled your post count in only 2 hours! And apparently like analog detectors because, well... if you had a digital detector...you know...that would for all practicality, be a "computer screen"...
 
MrNovice said:
Okay, well as I said before...really appreciate your deep and thoughtful insight on this issue here. You've definitely given us something to think about and maybe even helped some of us view something, from a little different perspective than before....I wouldn't know what that is, but okay.
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:coolman:
 
Tom_in_CA said:
Just now saw this post Skippy. And that is SO funny that you found that nearly contradictory verbiage. And clerks that have never heard of it. And tell you (despite the clear wording to the contrary) that "they don't handle that". Haha. Great sleuthing work.

But don't think for a MINUTE that you are "off the hook" just because you got one un-informed desk clerk. You must jump through all those hoops for every item you find that exceeds $100 value. You must go higher and higher up the chain of bureaucracy. Consult more lawyers. After all, you "don't want to get a ticket", right ? Abide by the md'r code of ethics EVEN when it's painfully obvious no one enforces or cares or knows about nuances like those. Now hurry, go do the right thing ! :laughing:
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This is where it moves from academic to just me laughing hysterically. Actually.. I mean.

YES, TOM. I will NEVER give up. Never surrender! I will pester every beurocrat I find until they finally give up in hysterics and legislate that there is to be NO MORE METAL DETECTING, EVER! Because then the problem will be solved. MWUHAHAHAHAAH.

That's the goal right? Solve the problem at all costs!

At some point, though, I'll be like, "I've posted it up there in 45 days, I don't care any more."

Other options:
I cut it into small $99 chunks and then I have a bunch of objects less than $100!

Declare to everyone around me, every time I find something, "THERE IT IS! I lost this, and I'm so glad to have found it!" *really, I did.*

Or any other things. Because ultimately:

AAEAAQAAAAAAAAV3AAAAJGRiYmNlNjhkLTA3ODktNDBmNy1hZTM2LTExNmZjMzA5Y2ZjOA.jpg
 
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