So glad to be here....Findmall is blowing up...and my opinion of the new Tesoro Outlaw

[Right Brain]

Originally Posted by dan

What did you do that they didn't like? (My story is in note #25, above).

There were many things, here is just ONE example:

I posted about the Dual Field in the PI section, asking a simple question trying to see how it compares to the SH2 regarding some specifics, just a normal dry question. The post was moved to some other forum that had nothing to do with the question at hand. It got no reply's because the mods put it in the wrong area, I asked why they did they without being malice and they removed the thread completely. Other times they just removed my threads completely.

[Terry Soloman]

Digger, are you "Monte" on Findmall?

What if your speculation about Tesoro's "financial problems" is without merit? Does that taint the rest of your arguments? What if it was just Jack's retirement, and James leaving the Company, that allowed Vince to slowly start turning the Company in a new direction marketing- and distributor- wise? What if this is just the first phase of those changes. People that make these sweeping assumptions based on thin air should be in Washington DC. Apparently we pay people to do it there.

Originally Posted by DIGGER27

Anyone notice all the stuff going over on Findmall?
Regarding the new Tesoro Outlaw, threads are being edited or cut, some opinions are staying but the threads are closed immediately.
The owner is insane and allows some weird stuff, but does not like anything that will affect his bottom line, like bashing a sponsor...even in the slightest.
If you are over there, heaven forbid you even try to make a comment or suggestion on how to run his site or you will be banned...like me.
Even if it is an innocent suggestion in a private PM.

This place is much...better.

As far as all the disappointment in Tesoro's new model...this is my take.
Tesoro was probably in a little bit of trouble, financially, due to the problems we have had in this country economy-wise, and the fact that their types of machines do not have all the state of the art bells and whistles that a lot of new md'ers, early adpopters and veterans are wanting.
Or think they want.
This new economy is one of their reasons for having their recent paradigm shift in thinking and finally letting Kellyco sell their units, I assume.

They tend to stay their course, and have never had a track record of really listening to customers on improvements, even if some of those customers, (and dealers), are extremely knowledgeable and respected and do have great opinions...like Monty.
This is their company philosophy and it has never changed.
This is their company and they are allowed to run it the way they want.
As long as you understand this, and for those of us that use their products, I for one am happy with the choices of the types of machines they offer.
Sure, I would like to change a few features and add some things here and there, but nothing is perfect.

This new detector is not aimed for the veteran user, but for the first time new to Tesoro buyer that wants a Tesoro-like unit and a package with some well thought out coils.
Something a user can grow into and can utilize the abilities of those different coils for many different types of sites that they may come across.
It seems they took something similar to a Vaquero, and brought back a feature or two from the older Bandido, and wrapped it all into a pretty nice all around package.

Cutting edge...no.
Is Tesoro ever going to come out with a unit that is going to make all the veteran Tesoro heads happy with more tones and multiple frequencies and all the newest and top technological features?
Probably not...at least not any time soon.
This type of cutting edge technological wonder machine does not fall within the parameters of their philosophy or thinking.
This doesn't mean that they won't come out with some new kind of detector with some kinds of upgrades and breakthroughs in high tech, but because of the way this company thinks, those breakthroughs will have to come from their team and in-house.
Tesoro is not noted for using or borrowing or paying to use technologies from other companies for the most part, and they decided long ago they have a niche in this business and they are happy and comfortable in that niche...come hell or high water.

Will this philosophy hurt them in the long run?
Maybe, but that remains to be seen, and they still seem to sell a good amount of their kind of not-so-many-frills type of detectors, even today.

Lots of hunters want a unit that can tell what a target is, exactly where it is, what it is made of and it's manufacturing date while still in the ground...almost down to China.
A slight exaggeration, but you know what I mean.
There are plenty of manufactures of detectors around that produce the newest high tech on the market, and that is fine if their customer base wants that and has the money for it.

According to Tesoro, that is not who their base customer is, even though several of them really are.
Loyalty means a lot in this hobby, and lots of Tesoro guys are anxious and waiting for the next great generation of a new and improved type of Tesoro detectors...and are very disappointed when they don't see this happening.

Like I said, this type of "second coming" detector might not ever come out of this company, unless it comes from within and they discover a monumental breakthrough in technology by their own people.
Even repackaging all the different features of several of their own detectors takes a whole lot of money in manufacturing costs, otherwise we would have a dozen more models with every combination of features that almost everyone could want.
They attempted to do something like that with this one, but of course, people being who they are, they are never going to make everybody happy 100%.

This new detector is not for me, since I already have a Vaquero and a few coils in the arsenal.
However, if I was new to the hobby, or even a veteran deciding to come over to the Tesoro way of thinking and hunting, this new package is a winner, IMO, and a great value if this thing works as well and has the quality that the rest of the Tesoros are known for.

Let's give them a chance and see what some of the new owners think after taking them out in the field for awhile.

HH

[DIGGER27]

Originally Posted by Terry Soloman

Digger, are you "Monte" on Findmall?

What if your speculation about Tesoro's "financial problems" is without merit? Does that taint the rest of your arguments? What if it was just Jack's retirement, and James leaving the Company, that allowed Vince to slowly start turning the Company in a new direction marketing- and distributor- wise? What if this is just the first phase of those changes. People that make these sweeping assumptions based on thin air should be in Washington DC. Apparently we pay people to do it there.

Sorry, but the only one breathing any thin air around here seems to be you.
I was in retail for close to 30 years and I base my assumptions on several different things.
You have a different opinion, fine.
I am sticking by mine.

[Terry Soloman]

Originally Posted by Terry Soloman>>>

Digger, are you "Monte" on Findmall?

What if your speculation about Tesoro's "financial problems" is without merit? Does that taint the rest of your arguments? What if it was just Jack's retirement, and James leaving the Company, that allowed Vince to slowly start turning the Company in a new direction marketing- and distributor- wise? What if this is just the first phase of those changes. People that make these sweeping assumptions based on thin air should be in Washington DC. Apparently we pay people to do it there.<<<

Originally Posted by DIGGER27

Sorry, but the only one breathing any thin air around here seems to be you.
I was in retail for close to 30 years and I base my assumptions on several different things.
You have a different opinion, fine.
I am sticking by mine.

So, does that mean yes, you are Monte, or no, you're not?

[DIGGER27]

Originally Posted by Terry Soloman

Originally Posted by Terry Soloman>>>

Digger, are you "Monte" on Findmall?

What if your speculation about Tesoro's "financial problems" is without merit? Does that taint the rest of your arguments? What if it was just Jack's retirement, and James leaving the Company, that allowed Vince to slowly start turning the Company in a new direction marketing- and distributor- wise? What if this is just the first phase of those changes. People that make these sweeping assumptions based on thin air should be in Washington DC. Apparently we pay people to do it there.<<<



So, does that mean yes, you are Monte, or no, you're not?

Are you serious?
If you really don't know who Monte is, and how much respect he has in this hobby and has had for decades, you really don't have a clue about much...
Namolos.

[dan]

Originally Posted by Terry Soloman

What if this is just the first phase of those {Tesoro} changes?

If by the "first phase" you mean signing with Kellyco, what might the next Tesoro phase be? Signing with Wal-Mart?

Many years ago, Jack Gifford told me that he didn't let Kellyco sell Tesoro detectors is because it would kill the independent dealer. When I was an independent dealer, Kellyco was selling Garrett and Fisher for less money than I had to pay for them wholesale as a dealer. I felt guilty every time I sold a Garrett or Fisher, because I knew I was charging more than they would have paid if they had known about Kellyco. (Plus I had to charge some pretty steep sales tax.)

People would buy their detectors mail order from Kellyco at a steep discount, then come to me for help in learning how to use them. So unless I charged money for my time (which I never did), it was a losing proposition.

[rfjuice]

Originally Posted by Terry Soloman

What if your speculation about Tesoro's "financial problems" is without merit?

Terry, did you even read what he wrote? Digger stated his opinion and didn't necessary state facts. He just wrote what he feels is going on. Hell he didn't even say bad things about Tesoro and you jump all over him. I'm not even going to say I agree with him, but it is just his opinion and not an attack.

Good read Digger and thanks for your point of view. I guess we'll see how it plays out over the next few years.

[Terry Soloman]

Originally Posted by DIGGER27

Are you serious?
If you really don't know who Monte is, and how much respect he has in this hobby and has had for decades, you really don't have a clue about much...
Namolos.

Was that a "yes", or a "no?"

[Daysailer]

TS,

I am very very new here and to metal detecting. re my post count.

With very little effort, I found much about 'Monte' and his contributions
to MD'n and his expertice with many brands and models of MD's.

I also easly found that he is located west of the continental divide
Just as easily, found that Digger27 isnt west of the Rockies.
Most likely they are 2 different chaps.

I also find that you have respect and expertice in the same areas.
Why are you sniping at the author of this thread and his opinions presented here?
Its no different than what you do. And it belittles your hard earned reputation.

HH

[Terry Soloman]

Originally Posted by rfjuice

Terry, did you even read what he wrote? Digger stated his opinion and didn't necessary state facts. He just wrote what he feels is going on. Hell he didn't even say bad things about Tesoro and you jump all over him. I'm not even going to say I agree with him, but it is just his opinion and not an attack.

Good read Digger and thanks for your point of view. I guess we'll see how it plays out over the next few years.

When I "jump all over him," you'll know it? I am doing what some of you are doing with me - questioning his opinion, and stating my own. That is all.

No seems to give a moderator's tail when the mud slinging is going in my direction, that is just giving their "opinion." But if I state my opinion or question some long time community member's opinion I'm suddenly "jumping all over them."

Hey, you want to base your metal detecting knowledge on what other people say or think? Go for it. But don't try and say I can't have an alternate opinion, and base my knowledge on personal experience instead.

I never said that Monte, Digger, or anyone else was an evil human being. I simply disagreed with their logic and arguments.

[Terry Soloman]

Originally Posted by Daysailer

TS,

I am very very new here and to metal detecting. re my post count.

With very little effort, I found much about 'Monte' and his contributions
to MD'n and his expertice with many brands and models of MD's.

I also easly found that he is located west of the continental divide
Just as easily, found that Digger27 isnt west of the Rockies.
Most likely they are 2 different chaps.

I also find that you have respect and expertice in the same areas.
Why are you sniping at the author of this thread and his opinions presented here?
Its no different than what you do. And it belittles your hard earned reputation.

HH

That is what this and every other forum is about - Giving opinions, sharing experience. For many, many years, Whites and Garrett have "owned" the metal detecting forums through sponserships and a majority of detector owner members. When Tesoro began making headway through word of mouth, rather than paid sponsorships, some got defensive.

Whites has steadily lost market share to Tesoro, as have others, and Tesoro has refused to allow its dealers to make the same high profits per machine as Whites, by setting the retail price at the factory and making it public on their website.

Most other "American" metal detector manufactures still import the majority of their components, then assemble them in the United States. Tesoro actually manufactures the majority of their own components right there in Prescott. It is the ONLY American metal detector manufacturer with the confidence to back its machines for life.

Whites and Garrett are probably FREAKING OUT right about now, because they know this new moderately priced machine and three-coil package is genius!

So, Daysailer, thanks for your post, but here is the thing.. I don't care what anyone thinks about me or my reputation, I say what I mean whether you aor anyone else likes it or not. I am also the only one on this forum that has the intestinal fortitude to use my real name so you KNOW who you are talking to every time.

I'll have some thoughts on Pulse Delay a little later, after the smoke from the next barrage of insults clears..

[rfjuice]

Originally Posted by Terry Soloman

When I "jump all over him," you'll know it? I am doing what some of you are doing with me - questioning his opinion, and stating my own. That is all.

No seems to give a moderator's tail when the mud slinging is going in my direction, that is just giving their "opinion." But if I state my opinion or question some long time community member's opinion I'm suddenly "jumping all over them."

Hey, you want to base your metal detecting knowledge on what other people say or think? Go for it. But don't try and say I can't have an alternate opinion, and base my knowledge on personal experience instead.

I never said that Monte, Digger, or anyone else was an evil human being. I simply disagreed with their logic and arguments.

Implying that he's a lying politician and belongs with the rest of them(yes they do work in DC).

Asking him if he is Monte?? What does that have to do with what he posted?

I realize this may be an ongoing feud, but as it seems from this thread you are the one doing the mud slinging. Most discussions/debates/arguments or what have you, start with a opinion/fact/point and then are countered.

He stated his opinion on a new product and about direction of Tesoro as a company. Nothing said was even bad about Tesoro. Times are tough for the majority of the companies here in America.

You didn't seem to offer any counterpoints instead going with "what if" questions. There are always "what ifs", to damn near anything in life. I can do it too:

What if Tesoro is on the edge of a monumental breakthrough and they just needed to release something so they can refine their product over the next 2 years?

What if Tesoro is going to be bankrupted if this new detector fails?

What if Tesoro switches to American made components and moves production to Mexico?

What if Tesoro can improve their processes so much they can reduce the time it takes to produce a detector and lowers their price accordingly?

What if Tesoro starts making Sand Sharks without hot glue?

What if Tesoro starts putting other detector companies out of business?

There are better ways to question a "long time" forum member, than asking "what ifs".

Do you have any proof that Vince is turning the company in a new direction?

How many phases are in their plan?
Will we see them soon?

Is Tesoro planning on getting ISO certified?

Letting KellyCo sell their product will result in more sales to people just starting out in the hobby. Do you see that as a marketing plan to gain more loyal customers?

Just some examples on how not to ask 'what ifs". "What ifs" are assumptions and careful because "People that make these sweeping assumptions based on thin air should be in Washington DC."

[rfjuice]

Originally Posted by Terry Soloman

Tesoro actually manufactures the majority of their own components right there in Prescott.

Well you were there and I wasn't, so you should be able to answer some questions.

Do manufacture the components that go on the pcb's? Resistors, transistors, microprocessors, ribbon cable?

I do imagine they would do their own case modifications. And they make their own coils too right? I've seen some pictures of them.

[Terry Soloman]

Originally Posted by rfjuice

Well you were there and I wasn't, so you should be able to answer some questions.

Do manufacture the components that go on the pcb's? Resistors, transistors, microprocessors, ribbon cable?

I do imagine they would do their own case modifications. And they make their own coils too right? I've seen some pictures of them.

Call and ask to speak to Vince Gifford. Unlike other metal detector Company Presidents, he will speak to you and actually answer your questions gladly. As long as that information is not proprietary.

I think continued reliance on third party info is what started this "debate" in the first place. Let us know what Vince tells you!

[dan]

Originally Posted by Terry Soloman

I am also the only one on this forum that has the intestinal fortitude to use my real name so you KNOW who you are talking to every time.

Hmmm.

I don't know how fortified my intestines are, but I do use my real name on all forums. (I use just my first name as my ID, but my full name is on that plaque in my avatar.)

---Dan Hughes

[Jason in Enid]

Originally Posted by Terry Soloman

I am also the only one on this forum that has the intestinal fortitude to use my real name so you KNOW who you are talking to every time.

No Terry, you aren't. I think you have gotten emotionally involved in the debate and it's clouding your arguments.

[Rudy]

Originally Posted by Terry Soloman

Most other "American" metal detector manufactures still import the majority of their components, then assemble them in the United States. Tesoro actually manufactures the majority of their own components right there in Prescott. It is the ONLY American metal detector manufacturer with the confidence to back its machines for life.

Ohh please. What an exaggeration!

Define what you mean by components Terry, before you lose any more credibility.

I am certain that Tesoro does not manufacture the transistors, resistors, capacitors, speakers, switches, operational amplifiers and similar components that go inside their detectors. All one has to do is look at a schematic or even just visually inspect the PCB.

With an operation their size, I am sure they don't manufacture their rods from raw metal stock either.

If they did as you say, they'd be so capital intensive that they would not be able to exist on just selling metal detectors.

At best they make their own PCB from commercially available FR4 copper clad material and solder in their purchased electronic components. And probably wind their own coils.

[CanSlaw]

Terry,

I have seen your Crazy, Trolling, posts ALL over the internet in almost ever forum that people go to for information. I see with your nutso attitude you have been ban from a few of those forums.

Personally I hope you convince EVERY hunter that is hunting Florida or is planning on hunting Florida beaches to purchase Sand Shark detectors. That is the biggest favor you could do for ALL of us seasoned hunters here in FL.

I had the enjoyment of hunting behind a Sand Shark the other day and I must say, it was most enjoyable following him with the detector I was using

Keep up the good work.

[ronfin]

I used to post in the ETRAC forum at findmall daily, but recently I've been avoiding it more and more. A few guys over there think they're the absolute authority on the hobby, and bashed me for using a long-handled digger. Telling me how I made everyone look bad, and all this other ridiculous made-up nonsense. Then one d-bag in particular started sending emails to the people that run the entire parks system here in my city and tried to have me banned from MD'ing my local park, telling me I was "breaking the LAW." Law? No, there is no law against metal detecting here, but some parks are off limits. I'm not gonna rant on about the headache they tried to give me, but since I know the two ladies that run my local park and they love that I help keep it clean and allow me to detect there, the a-holes at findmall can kiss the purple tip if ya know what I mean. No place online for this hobby can beat this site. The people are friendlier, and I've yet to encounter a level of arrogance and ignorance like I did over [there].

[emfederin]