DFX and Beach Hunter the same?

[LatheMan888]

As I was reading thru various questions and answers here in the forum, I thought I saw someone say that the Beach Hunter ID was derived from the DFX. I looked at the comparison chart at the White's site, and they really do look very much the same except for a few extra features on the DFX. The most obvious common feature being the use of the same 2 frequencies, 3 and 15. Are they really as much the same deep down as they might appear to be to a newbie like myself?

[Rudy]

They are not the same by a mile.

The BHID is a derivative of a three frequency Minelab design licensed
by Whyte's and subsequently modified to cost reduce it some (like
dropping one frequency). It is not the same circuitry as is in the DFX.

Although the BHID seems to work well in fresh water and eastern ocean
beaches, it is abolutely an awful detector in West Coast beaches due to
their high mineralization. So, if you live in the West Coast my advice is
to look for something else.

[Brian]

Hmmmm. A Whites engineer told me that the B.H. I.D. is a cut down version of the DFX.
The DFX is a two frequency version of an old three frequency design that Whites licence from Minelab. Whites used the Minelab principle but added the huge adjustable user interface.

[TonyinCT]

The Beach Hunter is a DFX without all the features but uses the dual frequency as does the DFX so Brian is correct.

[LatheMan888]

Thanks guys for the input and advice. Since I live in Florida, I guess the BHID is still an option. Thanks Rudy. Who knows Brian, it may have been you that mentioned it that one time. Tony knows I'm doing research.

[Rudy]

So, let me see.! Hmm,

The BHID and the DFX share the same frequencies. For that matter, the DFX and the MXT share one of the frequencies.

The DFX has programmable AC and DC gain and ajustable ground balance.
The BHID is preset and way too HOT for Black Sand. Lacks a Signal Balance Control or gain levels, similar to the Successful but discontinued XL-PRO

The BHID, like the Quantum XT, which was an outstanding performer in most turf conditions but would also overload because the PRE-AMP for some strange reason was PRESET at a high level, and TOO HOT like the Beach Hunter for Black Sand or Heavy Mineral Conditions. The DFX is of course eminently programmable.

The DFX has the LCD VDI display electronics and the wonderful Signagraph capability.
The BHID has RED-YELLOW-GREEN LEDs instead, but only when you tun the sensitivity control down does it settle down properly and it still needs! slower averaging.

DFX has adjustable DC gain for All metal mode.
The BHID All metal mode is preset at a High Gain Level. Well that's GREAT for a low mineral environment like AIR, but in highly mineralized ground, for example, Lake Tahoe-Kings beach and most California beaches, it overloads 3 inches from the top of the sand.

The DFX has a very sophisticated discrimintation capability.
The BHID discrimination control is absent and it is preset by the factory.

So, is it the same design?! I think that is stretching it a bit.! Yes, they do use the same frequencies.

I believe that if you pin someone like Jimmy Sierra on that question, he will tell you that it is a different design.

[grinsebring]

Latheman, Having read all that from people on a much higher level then me, let me say this about both detectors.! I live in Florida smack dab in the middle. I hunt 99% of the time with my "ID" in fresh water. I have no regrets buying it.! Is there a better fresh water detector? Most likely there is depending on who you talk to. There is hardly any mineralized soil or sand here where I live. I spent 2 1/2 hours most! Sunday's! at a local beach in about waist deep water.! The finds will be posted after the type ends.

My DFX encounters! the same soil as! the ID! I run the coin program hotter then the factory setting.! Both detectors! with the higher gains overload on pop cans......No second guessing! there...With the gain higher on the dfx there is a lot of mixed signals.! no prob,! after a while! you can read right! through them.! Are! they the right detectors! for! this part of the country?! I have used others....I like these..... ...Gil

[Brian]

Same design unless you say a basic Sovereign without a meter isn't the same as one with. BHID is all presets while the DFX has adjustments.
The patent/circuits can be located through the Geotech forum.

[LatheMan888]

Thanks again guys. I'm not qualified to comment on all the info, so I guess I'll just leave it at that. I was just liking the idea of maybe getting something that had the core strengths of a higher level detector.
Thanks as well to you Gil. I live in Orlando so I imagine the BHID would work fine for me too for the freshwater hunting. From what I gather here, it seems like it would work well enough out at the Banana River and Canaveral shoreline too. Looks like you're doing okay with your lake hunting . Nice haul you got there.
Well, I hope the debate above helped others that are also thinking about the BHID.
HH all,
Ed

[Rudy]

Originally Posted by Brian

Same design unless you say a basic Sovereign without a meter isn't the same as one with. BHID is all presets while the DFX has adjustments.
The patent/circuits can be located through the Geotech forum.

Brian,

Have you opened a DFX and a BHID? I don't see them sharing a lot of parts in common, such as a common microcontroller, motherboard, or firmware for it. They don't implementing the ground filtering the same. Just how different must they be before you consider them a different design?

Calling a Ford and a Chevy the same design because they both have 4 wheels is somewhat disingenuous.

We have discussed the BHID and its many drawbacks in the highly mineralized California beaches compared to the DFX on our West Coast metal detecting forums.

We've even asked Jimmy Sierra Normandin, who drove White's to create the MXT, to take the message back to White's for an improved BHID that can handle the West Coast beaches. Certainly if the design was that of the DFX, this would have been a snap for White's and they would have been able to defend their West Coast market against the Excalibur. Of course, that didn't happen.

The following is an excerpt from a knowledgeable White's dealer and often times tester of White's detectors here in the West Coast. I'll leave his name out of it as it adds no value to this discussion.

White's had looked at Multi-Frequency LONG before Minelab was a viable metal detector producer for the hobbist.

At the time, early 1980s, Both Garrett and White's dismissed it because of some perceived drawbacks and continued to upgrade their Single Frequency Detectors.

In the 1990s, Minelab introduced its BBS (Broad Band Spectrum) Sovereigns which demonstrated an ability to quiet the ground reactivity and ignore the conductive Wet Salts. The success of the early Sovereigns and Excalibur was a wake up call for White's to develop a Multi-Frequency Detector after realizing their big advantages.

White's approached Minelab about acquiring a patent that they could have secured for a song in the early 1980s, but didn't. Minelab agreed to license White's the patent but it had to be finalized with White's bringing to market a 'functioning' metal detector, or else lose the patent rights (in other words, Minelab wanted a royalty stream). There was a given time limit, I'm not sure, but it was about two years.

The Agreement between White's and Minelab WAS NEARING ITS END, and White's had paid Minelab a good chunk of 'change' for the patent, and in order to secure it, had to bring the Beach Hunter to market ASAP.

It should be noted that the design originally licensed by White's from Minelab was for a 3 frequency detector. White's took out one of the frequencies to cost reduce it to sell at the required price point. The DFX was destined to be the flagship detector for White's, yet it is also a two frequency detector. There was no need for White's to remove the third frequency to lower costs ..... if it was the same design as the BHID. This would also mean that White's would also have to pay royalties to Minelab on DFX sales as well as the sales of BHIDs. White's could have had an Explorer killer for the US market ... if it had been based on the same design. The fact is the DFX evolved around a design that is different from the BHID so White's would not have to pay royalties on the DFX.

[Brian]

Well thats all about 50% right and 50% wrong. I know what was going on in the late 70's, early 80's as I met the Whites family on several occasions when they took the 'Tamiron' round the Carribean testing out the new machines.

The MXT was needed possibly because Whites Classics were being modified into 'Turbo' models in Europe for some years before the MXT prototypes went for testing. Group tests in 2003 still put the Turbo's at one to two inches deeper on all small targets whilst being a little deeper on large.There were reports on this on the U.S. Tech forum at the time. There were also elliptical coils designed in Holland years before Whites started to produce any.

I still wonder how long it would have taken for the Surfmaster P.I. to be brought up to date if Mr.Bill had not started to modify the machine himself?

Westinghouse a major U.S. company designed and produced a multifrequency metal detector before Minelab and Bruce Candy had been heard of. They just didn't got into the hobby market. Whites and Garrett may have perceived drawbacks but it cost them millions. But then I've got a post from Charles Garrett saying target I.D. was just a guess so was not needed and Mr.Gifford of Tesoro saying there was no need for the twin discrimination of the Fisher 1266 if you had good discrimination in the first place. Note that the flagship Tejon now copies the old Fisher and Garrett specialise in target I.D.