dissimilar soils... causing planar effect? calling KT, dogpound and others...

[JunkInTheTrunk]

All the ACE "haters" out there, I want this to be a serious discussion because I want to learn. I do NOT think it was the ACE's fault as it happened at multiple sites around the sandlot and if you read below you will understand what I was noticing. So PLEASE, the jokes aside on this one... PLEASE!!!

I was at a local totlot using an ACE350 with a S.E.F. 8x6 Butterfly coil with full sens and was getting SOLID, VERY SOLID signals right around the 25cent mark. It would register say at one location right around 8in. Dig WELL past 8 to find nothing there and keep in mind that I used the pinpoint on the ACE. I eventually gave up and moved on. Next 25ft or more away the same thing Solid signal and say the reading would be 6-8in, again a SOLID 25cent mark, say more close to 6 on the meter. Dig WELL past 6 to find nothing there. Eventually I gave up there as well. 10 MAYBE 20ft away from that "hole" (I covered it of course) the EXACT same signal type, this time it was right around 4-6in, but more closer to 4. NOTHING Here is the kicker, I NOTICED that everytime I dug... I went from totlot sand (almost like what you would see at the beach, but more "white" if you will (like sandbox sand that you would buy at a "toy store" or something for the play pens). The dirt was wet... NOT SOAKING, but definitely WET and the sand was more dryer if you will. I take the detector thinking, first really, thinking that I may have missed on the pinpoint because I'm new to using this coil so maybe I was doing something wrong with pinpointing. So anyways, I take the detector and sweep it over the hole and over the mound of sand next to the hole and NOTHING The whole time, I was using my GPP to try to find these elusive coins only to have nothing but an empty hole. I would push in the pinpoint button, put it in the hole and get a SOLID tone and would go into the hole past the plane (i.e. where the sand and dirt meet... so to speak) and as I went PAST the SAND the signal just flat out DIED!!! I would bring it up and the signal comes back. I eventually covered this hole went onto 1x more with the same tone, again 10+ feet away and dig and everytime the sand/dirt met and me putting the detector in the signal would be HIGH and as SOON as it past the plane the signal died. Is it POSSIBLE that the two soils could have caused a HALO effect at certain POINTS Keep in mind that these are 2x dissimilar minerals if you will. If you join 2x dissimilar metals, they will react to one another and one would be eaten at by the other and or vice versa. So like a total of 5x holes, with 2x of them doing this "test" when I noticed what was going on. I was REALLY intrigued by what was going on. BTW, I would adj the sens down a little, thinking that something wasn't working well between the aftermarket coil and the ACE350 and got the same affect I'm REALLY begining to believe in the HALO affect and think that the people that don't... well, believe in what you want to believe in. YEAH, the earth is STILL flat, and the sun revolves around the earth... get out of the F'N caves and start thinking for yourselves for once instead of just taking in what others say. I believe in the "scientific" method to a point. OBVIOUSLY, if you do something a certain way and repeat the process... HEY, I get the same thing by repeating this process!!! Well NO SHI_ SHERLOCK!!! The question is then, what happens if I "alter" a certain step... THEN what do I get OF COURSE, think about the possible outcome of the process or hypothesize what you might get or think you might get. Anyways, sorry if it is a long post, but I hope I explained it good enough to get some sort of feedback on what was causing my good to dying signal as I'm going from sand to dirt HH \_

the pic is crude, but hope it shows/explains what was going on... and keep in mind that there is a hole and putting the coil past the "planar surface" and/or into the dirt, the signal died and this was at at least 2x separate spots when I started to TEST what was going on. ALSO, at various depths... but ALWAYS noticed that it was past the planar surface!!! I don't know I found it pretty damn interesting... HH \_ people

Just thought I would share, what I experienced today!!! Someone MAY learn from this OR I MAY learn from someone... that's the point to this!!!

[MetalMiner]

I've run into the same thing with my F2. I'll get a good solid signal from several angles, pinpoint it, dig halfway to China & nothing. Rescan the hole & the signal is gone. Right away you think whats wrong with this MD,it gets real frustrating digging those deep holes & not pulling out something to brag about. I was told it could be a piece of iron that has totally disintegrated & theres a iron cloud in the dirt. I did run into that last week but when I dug the hole I was able to see the rust colored soil where a piece of iron disintegrated. What your saying makes sense also, because in my yard there's about 3-4" of soil & a layer of big stones I guess were layed down to help drainage. I thought about the different layers & if they are causing me to get crazy readings, I have spots in my yard where I get numbers all over the place but cant seem to pinpoint it down to a certain spot,so I didn't even try to dig it because it was about a foot and half area. The ghost signals can drive you crazy.

[dogpound]

http://metaldetectingworld.com/halo_effect.shtml

[MetalMiner]

Originally Posted by dogpound

http://metaldetectingworld.com/halo_effect.shtml

Thanks DogPound,thats good information

[JunkInTheTrunk]

Originally Posted by dogpound

http://metaldetectingworld.com/halo_effect.shtml

Thanks dogpound... DAMN, gotta go dudes, running late for work... *&^$@(& Later and HH \_

will be back tonight!!!

[ATProGuy]

Wow. Long thread. Makes sense though after reading the link from Dogpound and experiencing the same thing with my ace. Doesn't happen often to me though.

[KingTotsalot]

KT does not have an Ace...has the ATPro and BH Tracker IV tho. Have encountered a few of these types of signals that disappear after plug digging, but not many and very few in totlots....KT's totlots are a bit different than the one you describe concerning the materials and layering tho. There are 3 kinds around here...gravel lots....the original ground surface is deep and thick gravel on top. Sandy lots....deep sand on original ground....either of these types might have a cloth liner to prevent weeds from coming through, tho often not.

Finally wood chip...KT has encountered 3 types of wood chip lots...first and simplest consists of deep wood chips on fabric liner...ground underneath. Another type is wood chips on either gravel or sand.....thought of as a more modern or upgraded totlot...but no liner between the two....and finally wood chip on gravel or sand with a liner between the lower medium and the wood chips. Also considered a more modern upgrade from gravel or sand.

Then there is the damnable wood chip on rotted woodchip! The good coins in the original wood chip medium are buried so deep you don't get good readings on them.

Those disappearing signals....of all the hits I get, they are the most frustrating. Rather dig a tab than have a signal disappear. KT agrees strongly with the article posted. Some of these disappearing signals occured early when KT did not know his MD very well and did not do a good job of pinpointing. The Garrett ProPointer resolved much of that problem. But KT seems to remember a couple of signals that were gone and no sign of anything unusual in the hole or plug...halo usually leaves some kind of trace of rust in the plug or soil....Wish I could expound on your planar feature idea but I really do not know of anything that would support it in my experience....but that is why I expounded on the structure of the totlots I dig...I don't ever remember encountering one with the "soil" structure as you described it.

[Milhaus]

This is where the ZOMG I dug a coin at 18" thank you <insert any metal detector model here>!! posts come from.
Good link.

Originally Posted by dogpound

http://metaldetectingworld.com/halo_effect.shtml

It's also worth noting that when a mineral dissolves in soil it creates a matrix, one microscopic bit after microscopic bit touching each other creating random densities and strands of the dissolved mineral.
This will still supply conductivity, but the wrong conductivity. I'm sure someone could spend a bunch of money studying this, but it's not to hard to understand.

[fred sanford]

1 Maybe turn the sens down - I usaully turn mine down in a tot lot , to much metal
2. Smaller coil- A big coil could be picking up stakes, playground equip.
3. Check the way the coil wire is wound on the lower shaft .If it is not tight this can create falsing. My Buddy Qball on here had an issue like that a few years ago.
4. The material in the totlot may be mineralized.
5. See if you get a signal swinging in a couple directions. Swing one way , move 90 degrees and swing again. A signal in 2 directions most of the time is good.
6 Some of those tot lots have shredded tires which have pieces of metal tread
7 Sometimes the mulch has can slaw - very small pieces.
8 Do you own a pinpointer - may help

[JunkInTheTrunk]

Originally Posted by fred sanford

1 Maybe turn the sens down - I usaully turn mine down in a tot lot , to much metal
2. Smaller coil- A big coil could be picking up stakes, playground equip.
3. Check the way the coil wire is wound on the lower shaft .If it is not tight this can create falsing. My Buddy Qball on here had an issue like that a few years ago.
4. The material in the totlot may be mineralized.
5. See if you get a signal swinging in a couple directions. Swing one way , move 90 degrees and swing again. A signal in 2 directions most of the time is good.
6 Some of those tot lots have shredded tires which have pieces of metal tread
7 Sometimes the mulch has can slaw - very small pieces.
8 Do you own a pinpointer - may help

I did just about EVERYTHING you stated. I pick up a signal and 90deg it... made it pretty much a habbit doing that. My coil wire is fine as well as far as being wrapped around the shaft. I also played with the sens as well. THAT night, for some reason, I got STRONG readings and was nowhere near the playground equip. This happened at various spots and at various depths. My crude illustration shows the material content of this particular tot lot. I have to agree with Milhaus about the small mineral contents. ALSO, you bring up a good point about the tot lot being "mineralized" as well. Can the "mineralized" be in certain spots to where a more sensitive coil will pick it up? That night I was using the 8x6 S.E.F. Butterfly coil on the ACE250, which earlier that day (i.e. on my lunch break) I didn't pick up anything unusual... same setup... found junk at that point in time as well. Went back after work to do the reast of the sand lot and started picking up these "false" signals all of a sudden. Keep in mind that they were STRONG signals. If you look at my previous posts, I state that I noticed that when I would press the pinpoint button and put my coil down the hole I dug... as soon as I passed the sand portion continuing on into the wet dirt portion the signal would just die. I would raise it back up with the pinpoint button pressed still and the signal would come back THAT is why I started this thread and called it "planar affect". I'm NOT trying to sound all scientific here, it's just that I found it weird that I would cross this "plane" of the two soils and the signal would go from a strong tone (constant) and as soon as I PASS the "plane" the signal would just vanish. Anyways, like I also stated, it happened at various spots and my pinpointing had nothing to do with it (i.e. not talking about the GPP, of course, talking about my actual pinpointing itself). One FINAL thing, please humble me for a moment, I also state in my previous posts that I noticed that when it gave me a certain depth reading that it coincided (spelling) with the depth of the sand itself. Meaning if the sand at that particular spot was roughly 4-5in down THAT is roughly where my signal was... TRUST ME when I say this, there was NOTHING "in" the hole and/or near by after digging. I wished to God someone was with me that night so they could have experienced it themselves as well. Soooo, just saying. Thank you for your input as well. This thread/post is to hopefully inform the new guys as well. I'm still somewhat inexperienced myself, but can hold my own for the most part now. I've even gotten REALLY good with knowing how to dig plugs even... well, certain soils are a pain the a_ _ for me still, but I end up leaving it like I wasn't even there Still trying to practice the "slit method"... that one is still elusive to me for some reason... I ALWAYS still end up digging "plugs" for some reason and/or they end up turning into plugs Thanks for your input sanford as I always "look up to the more experienced guys" like you, dogpound, milhaus, KT, slingshot, onaug, and many others here on this forum. I learn quite a bit from your guys posts and replies. Thanks again people. Hope some new guys will learn SOMETHING from this as well as realize that the "HALO AFFECT" is VERY REAL!!! HH \_ people

[JunkInTheTrunk]

Originally Posted by MetalMiner

I've run into the same thing with my F2. I'll get a good solid signal from several angles, pinpoint it, dig halfway to China & nothing. Rescan the hole & the signal is gone. Right away you think whats wrong with this MD,it gets real frustrating digging those deep holes & not pulling out something to brag about. I was told it could be a piece of iron that has totally disintegrated & theres a iron cloud in the dirt. I did run into that last week but when I dug the hole I was able to see the rust colored soil where a piece of iron disintegrated. What your saying makes sense also, because in my yard there's about 3-4" of soil & a layer of big stones I guess were layed down to help drainage. I thought about the different layers & if they are causing me to get crazy readings, I have spots in my yard where I get numbers all over the place but cant seem to pinpoint it down to a certain spot,so I didn't even try to dig it because it was about a foot and half area. The ghost signals can drive you crazy.

I would to "rescan" the hole after I would cover it up and the signal would vanish Glad to see a response to this post. BTW, I would also notice at times that some areas were fairly large, not as large as yours though, but something strange about it... this was one of the holes though that I decided to dig anyways and the signal disappears after rescanning and never finding anything VERY FRUSTRATING, but interesting at the same time. HH \_

Thanks for a possible explanation for it as well. I haven't heard of that one... "I was told it could be a piece of iron that has totally disintegrated & theres a iron cloud in the dirt...", at least until now. HH \_