Myers Depot Metal Detectors

Utah, - Private Land Posting Requirements

S

Splix76

Full Member
Joined
Jun 24, 2019
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141
I have read the requirements for posting private land as no trespassing in Utah. It says that on all 4 corners, at streams, roads, gates, etc... all must be posted.

If land is not posted, and is not being actively farmed, I believe I am fine to detect on it without seeking permission.

Has anyone dealt with this before? I have a plot of land in the middle of no-where Utah where I suspect historical events took place I want to detect. There are no gates, no signs, no other indicators of ownership or access restriction.

I am looking to take the pulse of the community on this. I am certainly not looking to tresspass and I would not enter if signs were posted, I would leave if asked immediately, but this land appears to be owned but not cared for.

Not looking for a lecture here, just wondering what the general consensus is in situations like this.

Thanks!
 
Clearly, it's not trespassing if that's the law and the situation. What you really seem to be asking is whether the right to walk across somebody's land also includes implicit permission to find items of value and remove them. Some will argue it does, some will argue it does not. I believe they are two different things.

Edited to add: It does seem people in the east tend to recognize that if a piece of land isn't public, then it is owned by somebody. In Kentucky you'd be a fool to wander onto somebody's non-posted undeveloped land (legal) and start digging. Out west there seems to be a different attitude given the huge tracts of undeveloped and untended land.
 
I'm in agreement with ToySoldier on this one. There's a difference between walking/riding across someone’s private property that is not posted, and removing objects from someone’s private property that is not posted.
 
I think the posting requirements just mean the trespasser can be charged with criminal trespass. If it's not posted you are still trespassing but it's a civil trespass, it's not criminal until you have been told not to trespass.
 
kingman mikey said:
You will get a lecture from Tom in Ca. :laughing:
Click to expand...

haha :laughing:

Splix76 said:
.....I am looking to take the pulse of the community on this....
Click to expand...

splix76 , you are asking this question on a forum where some people think you need permission to hunt public park sandboxes. So .... go figure you're going to get "dire-sounding answers" for anything that doesn't have a red-neon banner saying "md'ing welcome here". :roll:

I notice that some people have answered (correctly IMHO) that simply being there is not an issue. Ie.: "middle of nowhere" and "not posted" and "... therefore can't be in any legal trouble" (nor is anyone around to care, in the first place, eh ?).

HOWEVER, they add that : MD'ing is in a different class though. Because it involves "digging" (toy-soldier) and "removing objects" (flies-only).

All I can say to this logic is : If THAT'S the way we define md'ing, as destruction/alteration (digging) and stealing (removing objects), then : We are all in an evil hobby, for even on public land. Ie.: public land ALSO has rules against destruction and stealing. So I'll tell ya what : Let's all just give up detecting anywhere. After all, it's inherently evil. Right ? :roll:

Obviously I'm speaking tongue in cheek, to point out that NONE OF US thinks of md'ing in those terms (even if that is technically true). Because we instinctively know that no one cares or knows about the coin in the ground Contrast to if that SAME coin had been on someone's bed-side night-stand, we would KNOW the difference.

This isn't to debate the difference between public land vs your situation. It's only to question this definition, that some float, for the very-nature of md'ing. If you consider it stealing, fine then, stay home (from everywhere). But if you consider it benign, harmless, innocuous, then .... I would treat it no different than the act of simply walking there. It all depends on how you define your hobby.
 
This is why I asked, I had not considered the facts properly. I am not simply on the land, I am removing objects and need permission.

I do know who the owner is, and have an address, but I can't reach him on any phone number so far. I may have to write an old fashioned snail mail letter to request permission.

Thanks guys. It's clear to me that passing over land to state owned land is fine, but detecting on private land requires permission in all cases.

I really appreciate the feedback, thanks again.
 
Tom_in_CA said:
haha :laughing:



splix76 , you are asking this question on a forum where some people think you need permission to hunt public park sandboxes. So .... go figure you're going to get "dire-sounding answers" for anything that doesn't have a red-neon banner saying "md'ing welcome here". :roll:

I notice that some people have answered (correctly IMHO) that simply being there is not an issue. Ie.: "middle of nowhere" and "not posted" and "... therefore can't be in any legal trouble" (nor is anyone around to care, in the first place, eh ?).

HOWEVER, they add that : MD'ing is in a different class though. Because it involves "digging" (toy-soldier) and "removing objects" (flies-only).

All I can say to this logic is : If THAT'S the way we define md'ing, as destruction/alteration (digging) and stealing (removing objects), then : We are all in an evil hobby, for even on public land. Ie.: public land ALSO has rules against destruction and stealing. So I'll tell ya what : Let's all just give up detecting anywhere. After all, it's inherently evil. Right ? :roll:

Obviously I'm speaking tongue in cheek, to point out that NONE OF US thinks of md'ing in those terms (even if that is technically true). Because we instinctively know that no one cares or knows about the coin in the ground Contrast to if that SAME coin had been on someone's bed-side night-stand, we would KNOW the difference.

This isn't to debate the difference between public land vs your situation. It's only to question this definition, that some float, for the very-nature of md'ing. If you consider it stealing, fine then, stay home (from everywhere). But if you consider it benign, harmless, innocuous, then .... I would treat it no different than the act of simply walking there. It all depends on how you define your hobby.
Click to expand...


I am torn on this reply, I agree with you on most of it. However, based on the history in the area I could find something much cooler than a coin and having permission would free me from feeling guilt about removing something in a gray area.

If it was just a parking strip with a 1920 coin, no big deal. If I find an old 6 shooter or other sweet piece of history, that changes things up for me.
 
Tom_in_CA said:
HOWEVER, they add that : MD'ing is in a different class though.
Click to expand...
We didn’t really put it into some sort of “different class”. We merely, and quite correctly, pointed out that walking across someone property is not the same as metal detecting on someone’s property.
You always try to make it seem as if “we’re” portraying metal detecting as some sort of nefarious activity.


Tom_in_CA said:
Because it involves "digging" (toy-soldier) and "removing objects" (flies-only).
Click to expand...
Both of which are true.



Tom_in_CA said:
This isn't to debate the difference between public land vs your situation. It's only to question this definition, that some float, for the very-nature of md'ing.
Click to expand...
No one…absolutely no one floats that definition.


Tom_in_CA said:
If you consider it stealing, fine then, stay home (from everywhere).
Click to expand...
In the situation he described, it would be stealing. He knows that it’s private property, so he cannot later claim that he was unaware he was taking stuff off of someone else property.


Tom_in_CA said:
But if you consider it benign, harmless, innocuous, then .... I would treat it no different than the act of simply walking there.
Click to expand...
Oh the irony. I recall that in anther thread (where the guys got “caught” stealing historical artifacts in England) how you and others lamented about how great it is that in this Country you own what is buried on your land. And now, in this thread, you’re telling some new guy to go ahead and detect on someone else’s private property and to keep what he finds.



Tom_in_CA said:
It all depends on how you define your hobby.
Click to expand...
No…it all depends on how the law defines your hobby.
 
I didn't mean to create a hot button discussion here, I just wanted other insight to ensure I was considering aspects I may have overlooked prior.

I did find input that added clarity, so thanks guys. I would hate to see this digress into a flame or bash fest, so with the data I was after in hand, I thank you all again for the feedback and advice.
 
Relax, Splix. These type of queries always raise differences of opinions, and just as many replies. They'll burn their candles down to a nub, and let the thread die in a short while. After all, most of us are MD'rs, and as such, can't run the two miles it might require for a long-winded discussion.

Roger
 
Splix76 said:
I didn't mean to create a hot button discussion here, I just wanted other insight to ensure I was considering aspects I may have overlooked prior.

I did find input that added clarity, so thanks guys. I would hate to see this digress into a flame or bash fest, so with the data I was after in hand, I thank you all again for the feedback and advice.
Click to expand...
No worries..."permission" comes up pretty often here and almost always goes in this direction. Of course, I'm one of the main reasons it goes in this direction, but what can I say...I am who I am. :)
 
GTS225 said:
Relax, Splix. These type of queries always raise differences of opinions, and just as many replies. They'll burn their candles down to a nub, and let the thread die in a short while.
Click to expand...
I'll never let this die!!! :D


GTS225 said:
After all, most of us are MD'rs, and as such, can't run the two miles it might require for a long-winded discussion.
Click to expand...
Amateur endurance mountain bike/gravel road racer here...did a 237 mile mtn bike race last yer in da U.P. eh...was 27 hours of almost non-stop racing from Copper Harbor to Marquette (only a handful of stops for food and water). Also raced 211 miles across the lower Peninsula from Au Gres (along Lake Huron) to Ludington (along Lake Michigan)...17 hours. Plus another three or four 100 mile races thrown in there for good measure, including Leadville Colorado. :p :)
Going to Iceland this summer for a 107 mile race around an active volcano.

And yet, metal detecting still wears me out...go figure. :)
 
Splix76 said:
..... I am removing objects and need permission.

.....
Click to expand...

Ok, then let's simply go with that definition of md'ing. ok ? After all, it's true that we "remove things" (aka "steal").

Then with that definition in mind, then the next time you detect public land, the proper question is not "Hi, can I go metal detecting here?". The proper question is: "Hi, can I remove and steal things from the park ?"

After all, this is the definition, so ... let's not mince words. Eh ?
 
FliesOnly said:
.... You always try to make it seem as if “we’re” portraying metal detecting as some sort of nefarious activity.....
Click to expand...

Ha, ME ? I try to do this ? Heck, I'm the one replying to the OTHERS that put md'ing in this class of definition. I am the one painting it as BENIGN and NOT "theft". It is those I'm responding to , who have painted us with a brush of damage and theft. Not me.


FliesOnly said:
..... No one…absolutely no one floats that definition.....
Click to expand...

Except you, in post #3 here, and multiple other thread's posts.


FliesOnly said:
..... He knows that it’s private property,...
Click to expand...

This is not about public vs private property. We already know it's ok for him to walk there (is the consensus based on his premises). Thus this is only about the nature of the ACTIVITY conducted. Not about the status of the land. Ie.: how do we define md'ing ?

And THEN we can answer the question. For example: If he had asked "Can I whistle dixie while walking there ?", people would have said "yes". Why ? Because the inherent definition of whistling is not evil, dangerous, harmful, etc... Ok, then .... what is the definition of md'ing ? And you and I disagree here. I say "equally as harmless" , but in your definition, it's : Stealing. So I'm simply saying : Why aren't you taking that definition out for a test drive ?


FliesOnly said:
..... No…it all depends on how the law defines your hobby...
Click to expand...

does the law define our hobby as "stealing" and "damage" ? If so, then everything you're saying does indeed logically follow. In fact, don't "mince words". Use those synonyms next time you're standing in a city-hall desk asking permission.

And .... I'm not understanding how those UK guys has a bearing on this. I think they broke a very plain-to-see *specific* law , right ? And.... I don't disagree that .... if you stood on one foot and squinted real hard, that .... so too will you find someone to say "md'ing is stealing", so even a 1958 wheatie is "stealing" . I fully understand this is the technical explanation/definition.

So .... let's all start applying this. And now .... if you'll excuse me .... I'm going to take up needlepoint as my hobby from now on. I've suddenly realized how horrible md'ing is :laughing:
 
Splix76 said:
I didn't mean to create a hot button discussion here, ....
Click to expand...

No problem . I have high respects for flies-only. He is very intellectually fair. Perhaps the answer is "somewhere in the middle".

I know that .... for example .... I have been travelling to other states on md'ing excursions, and will research ahead for places to detect. And sometimes (perhaps not unlike your location), they are "middle of nowhere" and anyone can walk right out there, blah blah. So my buddy and I will figure : "Then, since it's no secret to the history books, then no doubt others have long-since beat us to it".

Eg.: public utility land, RR right-of-way easement, or .... whatever. And imagine our surprise, when we find some of these places to be virgin ! Despite their being so easy to sleuth out, and walk right to ! Our minds are boggled thinking "why haven't the locals been 'all over this' ?" And .... all we can figure is : The locals knocked themselves silly fretting about the issues, and simply never go.

By all means, if you don't feel comfortable, then don't go.
 
I think the real issue here is that both sides are being argued as black and white, when in reality there is significant gray area here. Some owners care, some do not. It's not flatly stealing, but MDing and removing objects is more intrusive than just passing through.

A MDing person needs to know the risk they are taking when swinging on private lands. I know where I sit on this now, thanks again for the info.
 
Tom_in_CA said:
Ha, ME ? I try to do this ? Heck, I'm the one replying to the OTHERS that put md'ing in this class of definition. I am the one painting it as BENIGN and NOT "theft". It is those I'm responding to , who have painted us with a brush of damage and theft. Not me.
Click to expand...
Is English your second language? I’ll try this again. You always paint those of us who disagree with you, as people who claim that metal detecting is a nefarious activity. You do this so you can then swoop in and save the day by pointing out how wrong we are and that metal detecting is benign and innocuous. Yet, none of us actually ever say that metal detecting is a nefarious activity. It’s just you, accusing us of saying such things.



Tom_in_CA said:
Except you, in post #3 here, and multiple other thread's posts.
Click to expand...
Again, please show me where I described metal detecting using those words.
Here’s EXACTLY what I said in post #3
FliesOnly said:
I'm in agreement with ToySoldier on this one. There's a difference between walking/riding across someone’s private property that is not posted, and removing objects from someone’s private property that is not posted.
Click to expand...
Now…please show me where I say anything remotely similar to what you’re accusing me of saying.




Tom_in_CA said:
This is not about public vs private property. We already know it's ok for him to walk there (is the consensus based on his premises). Thus this is only about the nature of the ACTIVITY conducted. Not about the status of the land. Ie.: how do we define md'ing ?
Click to expand...
Except is NOT about how we define md’ing. It’s about what is legal and what is illegal. What is ethical and what is unethical.



Tom_in_CA said:
Ok, then .... what is the definition of md'ing ? And you and I disagree here. I say "equally as harmless" , but in your definition, it's : Stealing.
Click to expand...
Sigh…I have never ever ever defined it as such. Ever.



Tom_in_CA said:
So I'm simply saying : Why aren't you taking that definition out for a test drive ?
Click to expand...
Because it’s a stupid definition that NO ONE uses.





Tom_in_CA said:
does the law define our hobby as "stealing" and "damage" ?
Click to expand...
Not that I’m aware of.



Tom_in_CA said:
In fact, don't "mince words". Use those synonyms next time you're standing in a city-hall desk asking permission.
Click to expand...
And why, pray tell, would I do that?




Tom_in_CA said:
And .... I'm not understanding how those UK guys has a bearing on this.
Click to expand...
OK, this time I’ll go a little slower so maybe you’ll understand. In that particular thread, you, along with others, were so happy to explain to us why we’re so lucky in this Country not to have laws similar to those in England, where “The Crown” owns anything buried in the ground, even if it’s on private property. You were happy to point out that over here, YOU own whatever is buried on your property (with a few obvious exceptions). Yet, in THIS thread, you’re telling Splix76 to go onto some else’s property and take items…that you even admit…do not, in fact, belong to Splix76.
Do you truly not see the blatant hypocrisy in what you are saying?
 
FliesOnly said:
.... In that particular thread, you, along with others, were so happy to explain to us why we’re so lucky in this Country not to have laws similar to those in England, where “The Crown” owns anything buried in the ground, even if it’s on private property. You were happy to point out that over here, YOU own whatever is buried on your property...
Click to expand...

Good point.
 
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