ToySoldier
Forum Supporter
Durned those homeless people who didn't ask permission to put up their tents and shopping carts there, eh ?
I think my kids were around 4 when they learned two wrongs don't make a right.
Durned those homeless people who didn't ask permission to put up their tents and shopping carts there, eh ?
I agree, but in this case it might fall into the "if it is good for the goose, then it is good for the gander" concept when it comes to public property.I think my kids were around 4 when they learned two wrongs don't make a right.
I think my kids were around 4 when they learned two wrongs don't make a right.
I agree, but in this case it might fall into the "if it is good for the goose, then it is good for the gander" concept when it comes to public property.
So apparently you do think it's OK to detect on private property without permission, and keep what you find, since that is seemingly less of a crime than being homeless and setting up a camp. If that's the case, then why did you bother to respond earlier, telling me about "context"?Toy-soldier, the big-ticket word in this post (to make-or-break the discussion), is : "Wrongs".
I think that homeless people erecting their tents on blighted district vacant lots is "wrong". But I fail to see how a person md'ing those same lots is to be compared with that level of "wrong".
I see md'ing as innocuous, harmless, benign, beneficial, educational, nutritious, etc.... I do not see it as "wrong". But: Setting up camping tents , and bringing in your shopping carts and litter, yes, .... I see that as "wrong".
It's almost as if we're talking about "spitting on sidewalks" type laws.
So apparently you do think it's OK to detect on private property without permission, and keep what you find, since that is seemingly less of a crime than being homeless and setting up a camp. If that's the case, then why did you bother to respond earlier, telling me about "context"?
1. An abandoned farm house on land owned by a huge gas company that never sets foot on the property. It's falling down and getting too overgrown to hunt really.
2. A construction site where they tore down an old family store to build a new dollar store. I figured the corporate office was in another state somewhere. The equipment operators saw me a couple times, didn't mind. The neighborhood watch guy came around and was taking a couple old bricks as souiviners. (sp) because everything was going to the dump.
3. An abandoned mansion where the elderly owner lives in a distant city. Everybody else goes there and paints graffiti and has taken the stair railings and fireplace mantels.
4. Field owned by the power company but a farmer plants crops there. There used to be old houses there. I've went there a few times in spring or fall when nothing was growing.
I don't see anything wrong about not asking under these circumstances. There is no "no trespassing" signs.
Any thoughts?
What about just an empty lot?If it is in the context of places where "homeless people set up camps", then ..... yes .... I consider md'ing and keeping things I find, to be ok.
What about a seemingly deserted area that is posted, or maybe a large piece of property that is not necessarily totally "utilized" (i.e a large piece of property with a few buildings, but also a lot of unused/unoccupied space)? Say...for example...a hunt club?But no ..... not to be construed as applying to something like someone's front yard, or "hopping fences", etc.....
What about just an empty lot?
What about a seemingly deserted area that is posted, or maybe a large piece of property that is not necessarily totally "utilized" (i.e a large piece of property with a few buildings, but also a lot of unused/unoccupied space)? Say...for example...a hunt club?
Number 1, 2, and 4 are corporations, I don't feel bad.. Number 3, the elderly person, in distant city, yes that sounds wrong. The people who are vandalizing and stealing stuff from the house are more wrong but it is still wrong to even metal detect. I was wrong.
I only found one wheat penny there. Next time I'm out that way i'll put it back. It might not be the same one, because I don't remember the date but I think it was in the 50's.
To see if you'll ever admit that doing so would be considered as trespassing and theft.What is the point of the Q's ?
Birdwatchers don't kill the birds and take them home with them. Photography doesn't result in the object disappearing into the photographers camera, you understand this, yes? Hikers don't steal the stuff they saw while out hiking.Anywhere a person could (even in your own opinion) walk around unbothered and ignored, is places I would likewise detect. Since I consider md'ing to be equally an innocuous and benign and birdwatching, photography, hiking, etc....
But in another thread, you admitted that you would do that very thing.If it's "posted", as you say, then gee, I guess that's not a place you'd "walk around " at.
Bwa ha ha ha ha. No, it's not a "loaded term".But then .... even the term "posted" is a loaded term.
I'm not asking you about homeless people and the "camps" they erect. I'm asking if you would knowingly trespass onto private property (posted or otherwise) and remove objects that you have found.Because I'll bet that some of the places that homeless people set up their tent cities at, are "posted".
By "feels", I assume you mean whether or not someone is willing to knowingly break the law, yes?So your questions are ones that the answers depend on individual "feels".
To see if you'll ever admit that doing so would be considered as trespassing and theft.
Birdwatchers don't kill the birds and take them home with them. Photography doesn't result in the object disappearing into the photographers camera, you understand this, yes? Hikers don't steal the stuff they saw while out hiking.
By "feels", I assume you mean whether or not someone is willing to knowingly break the law, yes?
Where do you come up with this nonsense? Seriously...this is just complete and utter nonsense.Ok, sure. Let's focus on the word "theft": And so-too would you fall into the same category, on any speck of public land, the minute you metal detect at anywhere, where-so-ever.
Do you seriously NOT see a difference between stepping off of a sidewalk and momentarily trespassing, vesus stepping off of a sidewalk with a metal detector. Using it. Getting a "hit". Digging up the "hit". Replacing the soil perfectly (cuz we know you're perfect at replacing you plugs...they're all but invisible). Walking off with the item you uncovered. You see those as equivalent?But you're right: I do not focus on the word "trespass", because the moment you or I (or the homeless dude setting up his tent) steps off the sidewalk, then sure, we've "trespassed". Ok, shame on me. Ok ?
I never said anything about "destruction". I will say this, however, you do remove objects that you have found. That's no where near the same as bird watching, photography, or hiking.Correct. If we define md'ing as "destruction and taking things", then sure: Everything you're saying does indeed logically follow.
If taken in context, then I think you know that "No", I'm not talking about those types of laws. I'm talking about trespassing and theft of property. I though context was important to you? You tried to call me out on it in a earlier post, so maybe practice what you preach.If by that you mean things like jay-walk and/or spit-of-sidewalk type laws, then: Yes.
Where do you come up with this nonsense? .....
.....Do you seriously NOT see a difference between stepping off of a sidewalk and momentarily trespassing, vesus stepping off of a sidewalk with a metal detector....
.....I'm simply asking you if you think it's ok to trespass,....
Are you completely incapable of telling the truth? Show me where I said that md’ing is theft?What "nonsense" ? You mean the use of the word "theft" to apply to the action-of-md'rs ? I'll tell you where I came up with that "nonsense": From a fellow named "FliesOnly" on FMDF. Who uses that exact characterization when describing the action of md'ing.
Still more lies. Show me where I said that “exact definition”.Ok. Now do you know where I come up with that "nonsense" ? It's from your exact definitions. Ok, is that cleared up now ?
I never said it was OK. Does making up stuff just come naturally to you, or do you have to put some effort into saying things about me that are completely untrue?Using your definitions, ... yes ... I totally get it. You agree that stepping off sidewalks for purposes of birdwatching, photography, whistling dixie, etc... is ok.
That’s not my view. At all. I’ve never said that about md’ing.But , on your view, md'ing is outside of that pale of "innocuous and benign". Md'ing is apparently obnoxious, damaging, egregious, disdainful, theft, etc.... In which case, you'd be exactly right.
I’ve never defined md’ing.So as you can see, it all boils down to how you define md'ing.
I suppose I really don’t need to tell which part of my anatomy you can kiss.If we go with your definition, then sure, you're right.
Man, you are a piece of work.I don't think the issue is "trespass" here, right ? Because, for example, you seem to say it's ok to-do-so for birdwatching and photo purposes. Right ? So the issue is not "trespass". The issue is the activity that one engages in. Right ?
That's not really the issue [I'm trying to get at] though. If you know it's private property (posted or otherwise), would you take items from that location?If there is vacant property, no signs, other people are using it, I will detect it.
I agree that overreach NY authoritarians is always a concern. Sadly, those on bureaucracy most often feel their perceived need to feel in control. While I am feeding them that on their end of the transaction, on my end it is about MY ethical choice. Yeah, I could just go detect...but it could end badly and the hobby could get a black eye. In the general long game, I want to know I did the right thing. As far as authoritarianistically inclined tyrants are concerned: as a Patriotic American...I have an answer for them. Same one our founding fathers gave the tyrants of their day. In other words, my actions reflect the type of language directed at me. It is equally true that I am interested in gaining access, and I don't want my grandkids playing in a totlots of sharps. Killin' 2 birds with one stone. And I am making the hobby look good. I hope that helps.