The snotty park that hates metal detectors

Essentially what your saying is anywhere it's written - "Do not dig, deface, disturb etc." We should stay off those grounds? I mean that's just about all public grounds like parks, schools and even curb strips. So private properties with permission only?


Yup that's what it would mean if it's not about opinion, but about a law. Why would it have been written? So someone didn't attempt to steal flowers or trees? Someone didn't decide this would be a good place for a goldfish pond, and bring in a backhoe?
 
What I'm saying (and Tom will tell you otherwise) is that not all parks and city officials are whimsical, mean-spirited idiots who either have no idea about the laws in their area (and thus as Tom tells us, they make up decisions on the spot) or evil people trying to end the hobby of metal detecting. I'm saying that thousands of people all over the continent routinely get permission to hunt these places despite those written laws. Tom will tell you that even the chance of a 'no' is reason to never ask and just go ahead and hunt. Of course you'll sometimes get a 'no' but I'm shooting 3 for 4 I believe. I usually get something like "Detecting is no problem, go ahead and just be careful" or "Yeah those rules are just to stop people from stealing our flowers, detecting is okay" or once, "Sorry, we had so much damage from careless detectorists we had to ban it" (which is understandable!)

So the whole "Either never ask permission on public lands or just hunt private land" is a bit silly...a lot can happen in between! Permission is routinely given at places where there are rules that suggest detecting might be illegal....and sometimes it's not given. That's life and I can live with that.

Tom will tell you a sad story of a park he and his buddies hunted for years without incident (without having asked for permission). A newbie came along, asked city hall for permission and was told "no, detecting is not allowed" and it seems panic ensued. Did he ruin it for everyone? Were the old-timers now "criminals"? I don't know the answer but you'd have to think such situations are few and far between. To each his own but I tend to err on the side of caution and social responsibility...I usually get a 'yes' when I ask about public property and if I do get a 'no', well,....no big deal. I'd rather know before I start detecting than be told by a policeman standing over me as I kneel over a hole I've just dug. :lol: But some just detect regardless and are comfortable with the prospect of being booted. Everyone's different I guess.
OK. I will say that most parks and schools I hunt I've received permission. But if the wrong person doesn't like what they perceive I'm doing to the grounds pushes - those old rules can be enforced. This is why I hunt early in the morning, off season and leave when people start showing up. This is to avoid that one person that can screw it up for all even though I have permission.
 
OK. I will say that most parks and schools I hunt I've received permission. But if the wrong person doesn't like what they perceive I'm doing to the grounds pushes - those old rules can be enforced. This is why I hunt early in the morning, off season and leave when people start showing up. This is to avoid that one person that can screw it up for all even though I have permission.

I hear what you're saying and I'm not sure what the answer is. I've had people approach me but I've never had one keep pushing even after they knew I had permission. But if they did then I guess I'd have to choose between "I have permission and that's all that matters" or "This isn't worth the hassle" and hunt elsewhere. I can't imagine that an authority is going to suddenly enforce the rules after they've just told you they don't apply to you (simply because a bystander wants it that way) but I suppose it could happen.

About hunting low-traffic hours I think that makes sense to. The only time I've been against that whole idea is when people are doing it because they suspect they're probably not supposed to be detecting there, not to avoid bothering other people who use the park. The first one is simply to avoid being caught, the second one is just smart (not to mention good manners). :D
 
Yup that's what it would mean if it's not about opinion, but about a law. Why would it have been written? So someone didn't attempt to steal flowers or trees? Someone didn't decide this would be a good place for a goldfish pond, and bring in a backhoe?
OK. I get permission from the Superintendent to hunt all school property including sports fields. Or the President of the Parks board to hunt all property including park and sports grounds. Maybe the Mayor of the town? But you knowing there is a great possibility there is a rule that can be used to eject me from the property will cause a stink and get said properties closed to detecting? Just wondering if "Hey, I have permission from the Superintendent" would be good enough for you?
 
OK. I get permission from the Superintendent to hunt all school property including sports fields. Or the President of the Parks board to hunt all property including park and sports grounds. Maybe the Mayor of the town? But you knowing there is a great possibility there is a rule that can be used to eject me from the property will cause a stink and get said properties closed to detecting? Just wondering if "Hey, I have permission from the Superintendent" would be good enough for you?

Meaning what? If I pull into the baseball field and 5:15 for a 6:00 game, and someone is detecting on the field.......would I ask who they received permission from, then make sure that was revoked at the minimal during the season of the field being used? If that's your question...........the answer is a no nonsense, not going beat around the bush......... You bet your..... well you get where I'm going.
 
OK. I get permission from the Superintendent to hunt all school property including sports fields. Or the President of the Parks board to hunt all property including park and sports grounds. Maybe the Mayor of the town? But you knowing there is a great possibility there is a rule that can be used to eject me from the property will cause a stink and get said properties closed to detecting? Just wondering if "Hey, I have permission from the Superintendent" would be good enough for you?

What are the chances of that actually happening? A long string of things would have to go wrong, each becoming less likely:

1. A person would have to be adequately worried/offended/brave enough to actually approach you.

2. That person would have to be adequately incensed to ignore the fact that you actually are allowed to be there and continue to try and have you removed.

3. That person would then have to be mad enough to actually go and seek out the person that gave you permission.

4. The person that gave you permission would have to be convinced that giving you permission was the wrong thing to do, go back on his word, and thereby undermine his own authority in the matter.

5. This would then have to lead to a complete detecting ban.


Can's see all those things realistically happening, but at any rate, if you feel you're going to be approached and challenged either way, probably better to at least be able to say you have permission than not be able to say that. The issue would then be between him/her and whomever gave you permission.
 
What are the chances of that actually happening? A long string of things would have to go wrong, each becoming less likely:

1. A person would have to be adequately worried/offended/brave enough to actually approach you.

2. That person would have to be adequately incensed to ignore the fact that you actually are allowed to be there and continue to try and have you removed.

3. That person would then have to be mad enough to actually go and seek out the person that gave you permission.

4. The person that gave you permission would have to be convinced that giving you permission was the wrong thing to do, go back on his word, and thereby undermine his own authority in the matter.

5. This would then have to lead to a complete detecting ban.


Can's see all those things realistically happening, but at any rate, if you feel you're going to be approached and challenged either way, probably better to at least be able to say you have permission than not be able to say that. The issue would then be between him/her and whomever gave you permission.
You see by HuntNH's comment that it can and will happen. You think he wouldn't get detectorists thrown out of parks? He would in a second. Even when they have permission......
 
You see by HuntNH's comment that it can and will happen. You think he wouldn't get detectorists thrown out of parks? He would in a second. Even when they have permission......

Well then I guess you're out of options. If you're worried about hunting places even WITH permission then yes, I suppose private property with permission is the only route for you.
 
Meaning what? If I pull into the baseball field and 5:15 for a 6:00 game, and someone is detecting on the field.......would I ask who they received permission from, then make sure that was revoked at the minimal during the season of the field being used? If that's your question...........the answer is a no nonsense, not going beat around the bush......... You bet your..... well you get where I'm going.
Are you conceding that sports fields can be searched in the off season? Your OK with that? Other parks are open year round. What if you pull up on your City park with kids running around and you wanting to relive your childhood run over to the swing. Then from high in the swing you see a detectorists enjoying their hobby. But you knowing there is a rule stating you can't dig or disturb go and cause waves enough to get detecting banned. Would you? Are you that "one guy" we're trying to avoid by hunting early morning?
 
Well then I guess you're out of options. If you're worried about hunting places even WITH permission then yes, I suppose private property with permission is the only route for you.
I just try to avoid people like HuntNH. Not that I'm doing anything wrong. Or even scared of a confrontation. I simply know the squeaky wheel gets the grease.
 
Are you conceding that sports fields can be searched in the off season? Your OK with that? Other parks are open year round. What if you pull up on your City park with kids running around and you wanting to relive your childhood run over to the swing. Then from high in the swing you see a detectorists enjoying their hobby. But you knowing there is a rule stating you can't dig or disturb go and cause waves enough to get detecting banned. Would you? Are you that "one guy" we're trying to avoid by hunting early morning?
Nope, nope and nope
 
Until told otherwise, if you are detecting where there are rules in place that relevant authorities could easily apply to detecting then you are in fact breaking the law. Whether they choose to care or not is another matter (and out of your hands by the way). For you to conveniently tell yourself they will not apply before the fact is simply your own mental gymnastics, done for the sake of being able to get in for a few precious Mercs. Sure if your idea of enjoying the hobby is, like mountain digger, to get the whole thing in front of a grand jury to see if you're 'right' then hey, have at it. Doesn't sound very relaxing to me.
So your argument is (conveniently) then: "There isn't a 100% chance that what I'm about to do will be deemed illegal and I therefore deem it legal." Insane logic if that's what you're meaning. Again, this has everything to do with not caring either way...if you get busted, no big deal right? This has to do with lenient consequences, not right/wrong, legal/illegal. C'mon Tom, don't be shy to just say what you mean simply (no matter how silly it sounds when boiled down). :lol:


Late to the party again Stew? And there you go, dragging me back into the discussion by innuendo and misrepresentation. Did you really expect me not to point out the errors in your opinions?

First, lets start with your bad information about "Until told otherwise..." that I've highlighted in blue in your post. If a law exists that prohibits "digging", it is my opinion that YOU are violating the law if you choose to "dig". To say someone [and I mean ANYONE] can give you a PASS by 'telling you otherwise' is just bad advice.

As far as your ridiculous comment I've highlighted in RED above. You probably should stick to only making comments on subjects you might know something about or that you have some experience or expertise in. You're just demonstrating ignorance by mentioning 'grand jury'. Also, you have no idea what I think constitutes relaxation, do you?.:laughing: Question for you stew, do they have such a thing as a GRAND JURY in JAPAN?

I think most here will recognize your comment as a negative innuendo, but for those that don't recognize it as such, let me just say your assumption is just an ignorant attempt at tainting mountain diggers opinions. When one can't debate facts, they resort to these type of tactics. And stew, did you really think I'd not point out your use of such an underhanded tactic?

So stew, I asked earlier but you weren't participating in this discussion then, so I'll ask now: Do you know the difference between real property and personal property? And, do you know it's illegal for one to claim ownership of personal property that they do not own? All rhetorical as I'm sure you wouldn't understand how this might apply to a applicable written law.

I've pointed out to you before stew, it's my opinion that if 'NO DIGGING' laws exist and YOU (stew) choose to seek permission to "DIG" anyway, YOU (stew) are still VIOLATING THE LAW, and you know it. It's just my opinion stew, and I'm sure you don't agree.
 
Keep up the good fight! It seems the good guys get run off too often, we've got to respectfully but firmly stand up for our rights and promote a good image for our hobby.

:)
 
..... rules in place that relevant authorities could easily apply to detecting then you are in fact breaking the law. ....

Or conversely, said-authorities might NOT apply them to detecting. It works both ways.

....
So your argument is (conveniently) then: "There isn't a 100% chance that what I'm about to do will be deemed illegal and I therefore deem it legal." ....

Or, conversely, if there is a 1% chance that someone could deem it illegal, therefore we are to deem it illegal till told otherwise with princely sanctions :?:
 
.... not all parks and city officials are whimsical, mean-spirited idiots who either have no idea about the laws in their area (and thus as Tom tells us, they make up decisions on the spot).....


Sure. Not all parks give whimsical "safe answer" no's. But some do, and THAT'S THE POINT! Why get someone thinking about the "pressing issue of detecting", when it could oft-times be in places that never had issues prior to that ?

....Tom will tell you that even the chance of a 'no' is reason to never ask and just go ahead and hunt. Of course you'll sometimes get a 'no' but I'm shooting 3 for 4 I believe. .....

yes that is what I say :) And I'm shooting 4 out of 4. And I suppose the rejoinder-come-back is "what's the harm of that 1 out of 4 places giving a whimsical 'no' ? Just go hunt somewhere else. What's the big deal ?". Here's the harm: Because now you've got a place with a looming floating "no", at places where perhaps detecting was routine prior to that. Or what do you do when 1 guy gets a yes and the next guy gets a no? (base on who you asked, how you asked it, etc...). Doesn't any of this strike you as a bit arbitrary and whimsical, and not at all based on actual laws most of the time (barring something they morph to apply to your pressing question).
 
... Tom will tell you a sad story of a park he and his buddies hunted for years without incident (without having asked for permission). A newbie came along, asked city hall for permission and was told "no, detecting is not allowed" and it seems panic ensued. Did he ruin it for everyone? Were the old-timers now "criminals"? I don't know the answer but you'd have to think such situations are few and far between....

I gotta hand it to you Stewart: No one can accuse you of glossing over a contrary view's opinions, and not giving them full consideration. You do read and consider an alternate view. Thankyou. I hope I do the same fairness/justice for your position as well.

And there are other examples besides that one I've cited. And I suppose someone could summarily go down the line, and dismiss each one as "just a fluke" and "just that one time" and "not meriting an fear of asking". Sure. But on the other hand, you can look at it as a sample. So that for every one time where such a clear cut evolution like that is seen, you have to wonder just how many others are simply not documented, because no one "followed the dots" ?
 
OK. I get permission from the Superintendent to hunt all school property including sports fields. Or the President of the Parks board to hunt all property including park and sports grounds. Maybe the Mayor of the town? But you knowing there is a great possibility there is a rule that can be used to eject me from the property will cause a stink and get said properties closed to detecting? Just wondering if "Hey, I have permission from the Superintendent" would be good enough for you?

khouse, this is not an uncommon scenario. There's been multiple posts of someone who "gets permission" to detect parks or schools. But lo & behold, someone else comes out and tries to boot them. The md'r proudly whips out his "permission". To which the cop or gardener merely gets on his cell-phone, calls to city hall or wherever and says: "... but he's tearing the place up !" (which isn't true, of course). So guess what happens to your "permission" ? :roll: And you are sent away feeling like a criminal, berated for getting permission under false pretenses, etc.....

While I'm sure there's other situations where the "permission" sent busy-bodies away, embarrassed for daring having questioned you. Sure. But the point is: Don't think for a minute that "permission" is the end-all avoid-all-risks solution. It isn't . It too can be fraught with side-effects, failures to work, or ending up with "no's" where no one ever cared before, etc...

Thus often-time the best tactic is to be discreet to choose wise times, so as to avoid busy-bodies, from the git-go. Like nose-picking, out-of-sight is out-of-mind, so as not to offend someone.
 
Tom you're (intentionally?) confusing a few very different things and calling them the same. In reality, when push comes to shove, your 'opinion' on the law doesn't carry the same legal weight as an authority's 'opinion' on the law. You seem to be saying that in areas where the legality of detecting is, on the surface, a bit gray, you will make the decision that detecting is okay because there is a chance the authorities might also choose not to apply those laws to you (so hey, you were right!). Firstly, that's a pretty convenient assumption (100% access to everywhere) and secondly, your opinion will count for absolutely nothing when you have an officer standing over you saying "The law says no digging. You are digging and therefore doing something illegal". You really gonna say, "Well officer, I've already decided that it doesn't apply to me"?? Or your famous past-tense argument: "Give me a second here and I'll make it un-dug". :laughing: Of course not.

At this point you will say "Well they are more than welcome to boot me out" but then aren't we right back at my oft-asked-but-never-answered question of whether you would still be employing the same methods if the penalties were harsher?? I'd like your answer on that if possible (though I know it'll be hard for you to answer honestly and not look like a fool in the process). :lol: Really though, if the fine for detecting illegally was no-questions-asked $10,000 would you still be advocating people interpret the laws for themselves in the manner you suggest and just deal with the problem if approached? I think not.

Therefore, as I've said, this has nothing to do with right/wrong, legal/illegal, it simply has to do with detecting as many places as you can, including the places where it's illegal (cuz hey, it's just a slap on the wrist anyway). Grow a set Tom and just say what you mean: Legal or illegal it doesn't really make that much difference does it?? Hey if it's legal then you're good to go, if's not, well whatever you'll just get asked to move on (and they might not even do that). So why go through the rigamarole of finding out what is allowed and what is not if you can be out there pullin' wheaties? Isn't this about it?

Secondly, all you say only makes sense if the reality out there is in fact that detecting is 100% legal everywhere and it's only through the whimsical answers of lower employees that one could ever receive a (very unfair!) "no". But isn't the reality that detecting ISN'T in fact allowed everywhere? We all know that it's a fact that two parks with the same laws can have different stances on metal detecting. So you say you never ask because you want to avoid whimsical 'nos' but what about actual 'nos'? What if it truly has been discussed and decided prior to your arrival that detecting is not allowed? Do you want to know that or do you NOT want to know that? Not every 'no' is made up on the spot by pressured, mean-spirited, hapless people trying to ruin your day...most of the time it's people simply telling you what the law (or the interpretation of the law) is in your particular area. So I half 'get' what you're saying about avoiding a 'whimsical' no but by never asking you are also trying to avoid knowing where the actual 'nos' are...again, very convenient (and probably productive)....aaaaand we're back to the lenient punishment part again....:roll: Really though, do you count every 'no' ever given as pure whimsy, given under the horrible duress of the question "Do you allow metal detecting?" Surely not. More often than not they are simply conveying a fact to you - those no digging/removing laws really do include detecting...but I know you don't want to know about that! :lol:

In what other area of law or life is even the possibility of a negative answer reason enough, in and of itself, to never ask in the first place and just do as you like?? I can't think of one.

But all this you know my friend....;)
 
Thus often-time the best tactic is to be discreet to choose wise times, so as to avoid busy-bodies, from the git-go. Like nose-picking, out-of-sight is out-of-mind, so as not to offend someone.

Shouldn't that last bit read so as not to get caught doing something potentially illegal :D

C'mon Tom, just say it out loud! :lol:
 
Late to the party again Stew? And there you go, dragging me back into the discussion by innuendo and misrepresentation. Did you really expect me not to point out the errors in your opinions?

I figured you'd come out frothing eventually if I made an appearance. Aren't you the fellow who famously said his opinions are not up for debate or criticism and yet you've done me the favour of showing the errors of my ways? Your generosity is appreciated. ;)

First, lets start with your bad information about "Until told otherwise..." that I've highlighted in blue in your post. If a law exists that prohibits "digging", it is my opinion that YOU are violating the law if you choose to "dig". To say someone [and I mean ANYONE] can give you a PASS by 'telling you otherwise' is just bad advice. I've pointed out to you before stew, it's my opinion that if 'NO DIGGING' laws exist and YOU (stew) choose to seek permission to "DIG" anyway, YOU (stew) are still VIOLATING THE LAW, and you know it. It's just my opinion stew, and I'm sure you don't agree

This is so silly and untrue I'm not even sure how to respond. So are you saying that an entity (city, state, parks board) that creates a law is then not free to interpret it how they see fit? In my case I hunt a public park that has rules against digging yet have been giving the blessing by city hall and the parks staff to detect carefully (the kind that involves digging). Are you suggesting that we're all breaking the law here?

As far as your ridiculous comment I've highlighted in RED above. You probably should stick to only making comments on subjects you might know something about or that you have some experience or expertise in. You're just demonstrating ignorance by mentioning 'grand jury'. Also, you have no idea what I think constitutes relaxation, do you?.:laughing: Question for you stew, do they have such a thing as a GRAND JURY in JAPAN?

This was referring to the fact that you are always telling us that once in front of judge we should be able to wiggle out of our detecting transgressions so no need to listen to any lesser authority. Like how many of us really want to take things that far? :roll: As for what you might find relaxing, I shudder to imagine. And I believe there are grand juries in Japan though I'm sure you can find out these kinds of things faster using Google if you're truly interested.

I think most here will recognize your comment as a negative innuendo, but for those that don't recognize it as such, let me just say your assumption is just an ignorant attempt at tainting mountain diggers opinions. When one can't debate facts, they resort to these type of tactics. And stew, did you really think I'd not point out your use of such an underhanded tactic?

Hey that's cool! You highlighted the first three letters of assumptions to make a bad word. I gotta remember that one. As said above, I was fairly certain you'd be along to tell us all how things really are. Also referring to yourself in the third person is often said to be the first step into madness. Just sayin'. :roll:
 
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